Resting in Our Identity as Children of God with Rosalind Hervey

Welcome to Season 4 of the Returning to Joy Podcast! This week we are kicking off a new series, Sabbath Stories: Embracing Rest in a Restless World. Each episode will unpack the sacred call to rest and renewal, as well as a practical practice to help you integrate these rest rhythms into your life. 

This episode we sit down with Rosalind Hervey - a friend, mentor, and a spiritual mother to many in our community. She will help us unpack what it means to embrace our identity as children of God, and the ways that God can meet us in seasons of fear, confusion or distress. She will also share some practices that can help open our hearts to the ways God may want to shape our perspective on the world and how we engage it. 

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Transcript

9:52:09

Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Here we're leading people to cultivate joy through storytelling. We hope listening will reveal pathways to unlocking the healing power of connection so that you can see your relationships and the world around you transformed from fractured into flourishing. What's up Beloved's? I am thrilled to be back with you for another season. What is it season four. And if you've been following on social media or get the newsletters that we send out monthly, then you know that what we're unpacking in this series is the series title, if you will, is going to be called Sabbath stories embracing rest in a restless world cannot wait to go through that with you. It's going to be so good. But I'm actually decided to start this season off with a interview I did with Rosalind Harvey, actually earlier this year. Rosalind is a friend and a and a mentor. And she has been through some intense trauma and loss, but she's going to actually talk about how it helped reveal her true identity. We're gonna get into the power of cultivating the non anxious presence of Christ in our lives. And the gift that is truly to the community around us and the in the people that God has called and sent us to. Can't wait for you to listen to it some stepping back and go ahead and head and plan that episode. Roz, I am very much so glad to have you here. I met Roz a Rosalyn Harvey. Oh, man, I think what? Two I met you in 2019. Yeah, I made you in 2019. Because I was starting to do work with an organization here in San Antonio called one. And Roz. I mean, she she just very much is a mother, a mentor, a friend, a, a faithful, compassionate witness to Christ. She's a faithful, compassionate human. I am very much so excited for you to just share yourself with us. I was just telling Roz. We were praying for this time that man, I don't think this is going to be about you imparting like giving all the right words and imparting knowledge. But you being yourself. That is how she's helped me recover. And I think you, you do that, if she's done then brilliant ways of just being present. And as a result, people mature around her, and people heal, and people recover. And they act more like themselves. And so, Roslyn, you you come with a lot of wisdom. And so I we're all in for a big treat in this conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Rozlyn. Oh, it's my pleasure. Absolutely. I was just sitting here thinking you may have only known Gabrielle for years. It just seems like a long time. That's it just so funny. Yeah. That it hasn't been but I feels like it has been a long time. You know, a pandemic was in there, too. Yep. pandemic, all the craziness. So that that'll do it. Yeah, that'll do it. Or Aslan, you surely radiate peace. That is that is for certain. And so often, I've recovered from feelings, like I said, of overwhelm, and emotional distress just by being in your presence. Can you share with us your personal journey, and how you came to embody? What I've heard, I first heard come from your lips, the non anxious presence of Christ. Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for those kind words that are just so kind. I I have, I guess, grown over the last 35 years in ways that I probably wouldn't have anticipated from the first 30 years of my life. I think probably I went through some real crisis times. When I was around 35. I had the death of a child, my husband left me for another woman and he was a pastor and it was just difficult. I had another little child and so I had a little girl and I was a single parent and found myself in those two or three years just desperate for for help, basically, and I think it did sort of boiled down to identity, because I think I had thought that my identity was pretty much wrapped up in being a pastor's wife and taking care of him. So he could take care of the Church, which was something I actually learned in my family of origin. My dad was a pastor. And so we had that thing going on in our family too. So. But once that what I now look at as my faux identity was removed is kind of like, okay, well, what's, what remains what's there. And so, the Holy Spirit just showed up a lot. Jesus showed up a lot. Just responding to my desperate prayers, of how do I navigate this time as a single mom having to find a job a month, all that you have to do to raise a child. And so Jesus was just so kind to me. And the Holy Spirit was a sense of being so comforted and cared for. And that sort of attitude, on their part toward me, really, just sort of tar started to infuse the way I treated other people. That's good. So that's kind of how it all started. They always approached me in such kind and loving ways, sometimes I would just start crying because it was so kind. So you know. And so that was kind of how it started. And, and went, and even after that really difficult season of my life, and I, when I was just kind of making making it work, and Jesus was helping me make it work. I still had issues of needing to be healed. And so I stumbled on to it. I've been through lots of different kinds of healing stuff, but not a lot of inner healing stuff. And probably around 1999, somewhere in there, I learned about Theophostic prayer. And that's when I started really opening myself up to that kind of healing from God. And then I'm also praying with other people to have that, too. So he always shows up in those prayer appointments, which I've been doing for the last 2025 years, in very non anxious ways. And so you figure, well, he's not worried, you know, he's not urgent, and all those things that we tend to kind of put together with difficult circumstances. And so I learned from him how he showed up. That's good. That's good. Man. I love that Roz i, because so many times when I've been in a space with you, and I'm coming in front of you, and I'm dumping my stuff, and the things that are going on. And then somehow, I'll come out of that time with you, whether it's been in a specific prayer appointment that you're leading me through, or just simply a conversation in friendship. I walk out, I leave that time with you. And when I'm trying to tell someone else about it, I'm like, I don't know what she said. I don't actually know. Sometimes you do drop these amazing nuggets of wisdom in there is something that I can coin that I can a phrase that I recognize or words that stuck with me. But then there's other times when I go I don't know what it was about being in Ross's presence just then. But I'm okay. Everything's not solved. The situation didn't change. But I'm okay. And I love what you spoke to have that part of what's happening there. And there's a reason why I can't put words to it is it's not something that you just studied and learned. How do I be a peaceful person or what tools or tricks do you use in in mentoring and counseling other people being with them, but it's something that you're mirroring. By by walking in in fellowship with Christ you're mirroring, because in the places where you were in your deepest pain, where you were overwhelmed, you actually experienced, comfort, experienced, being listened to without judgment, and saw that model to you buy the Holy Spirit. And I've heard someone say before that we can't, in all of our training in any of the training that we may go through, we still can only we can't take people deeper than we've ever gone. And so I love what you spoke to about the prayer, the prayer appointments. Roz, I know you're, you're not a licensed counselor. But you are and you are a mentor. You are and you are a mother with a unique approach to helping others. Your non judgmental, empathetic and offer sincere grace. But how did that develop? Would you go deeper with us in that I know you've mentioned some of it already in the things you've modeled, from what you've seen how you've seen Christ's work be with you. But what were some other ways that you've cultivated that in your life? It's funny, I was thinking on the way over here, it's a funny thing, every now passes through my mind, the daughter that I had first, my first daughter was born with some real serious defects, physical defects. And she lived for six months in intensive care and then died. And it's an odd thing to think. But really, before I had her, I just thought that I would not have children for some reason or other. But oddly enough, you know, I, I responded to that situations in ways that I didn't know were in me. So it's kind of like she brought out in me the mother. And so it's it's, yeah, it's truthful to say that, that probably one of the darkest hours of my life probably brought out more of the real me. Okay, yeah, you have to wake. How How did that happen? Well, you know, it's really odd, because I found myself responding to her. You know, before you're a mom, you really don't know what that is, you know, you can kind of look at your own mother and kind of think about it and kind of get some pictures and ideas. But once a child shows up on the scene, there are a whole lot of things that happen between mother and baby that are not that are pre verbal and nonverbal. Yeah. And so that sort of thing went on between us. And I think she showed me a strong part of myself, you know, it's kind of one of those things, where you think, Well, I would never be able to fill in the blank. And then all of a sudden, you're in the situation. And you find out well, yeah, I'm, I'm stepping up here. I'm doing this. And so in a weird kind of way. Um, you know, I think that's, that's what sort of that part of me that got awakened, is really the mother, the mentor, the elder, it's all the same thing. And it's just helping people and responding to people who have need, be they articulated needs or be they pre verbal or nonverbal? Because I just wait, it was awakened to me. But also Jesus responded to my need in the moment. And the Holy Spirit responded to my need. So kind of those two things were really what we're kind of the door to kind of walking in that grace. Yeah. of responsiveness. It's a responsive place, being a mother. Do you have a story from your granddaughters that could give us a better picture into what that mothering response? Like? Yeah. The thing that came to mind was when my daughter and son in law had their 10 year anniversary, and my husband and I went over and took care of the little girls while they went for four or five days. And so that was like The first time the little girls had been alone. One was like, I'm gonna say maybe a little over a year. And the other one was about three or four. So anyway, they were little, and so that we were a little bit concerned about that. And so one night, one of the little ones, the littlest one, Imogen, was crying. So I popped out of bed and went over and got her out of her crib. And, you know, I mean, I was just in shock. First of all, how much goes on in a kid? By what what she said. She said, that black car took mommy away. What we had done is we had awaken them early in the morning, that their mom and dad were supposed to leave so they could wave at the Uber to say goodbye. So they wouldn't just wake up and then we're gone. We didn't, you know. So we had done that. And so little did I know her little mind had seen this Black Guard come and her mom get in it and be taken away. So she was crying. And so I just comforted her and I, I said, you know? I said, Well, do you know why they had to go in another car? And so I sort of reasoned with her a little bit and told her we had to keep the other car in order to take her older sister to school the next day and things like that. So she still looked upset. So I just said, well, would it be okay, if we asked Jesus if everything's gonna be okay, if everything's all right, she kind of looked at me pretty doubtful, but she nodded her head up and down. So I just said a quick prayer. I said, Jesus is everything okay? She opened her eyes. She said, Yeah. And then I put her back down in the crib, and she went to sleep, and we didn't have any other problems. And so I think just knowing that Jesus is ready and wants to help, and that he's very close to children, really, really matters. And we're all children of God. So even when we're upset, and we don't even have words for it, we just have funny words for it even Yeah, he's there. He wants to help. He's, he's, he's ready and waiting. Now, I love that. Yeah. Well, Roz, like what practices, you know, spiritual disciplines or techniques have helped you maintain a gracious and empathetic presence. You know, when I thought about that question, what kept coming to mind was core values, and being able to honor and cooperate with the way that God made me and the values that he put in my heart, particular values. Okay. And I think maybe some, I guess, the way I was seeing them, was that my Yeah, like, I would think of them as boundaries. But boundaries aren't really the values. Like, for example, if I have a boundary, to try and not talk to talk about somebody who's not in the room with me, to other people, that kind of thing, that the value behind that is just wanting to share life, and, you know, just be honest and transparent in my relationships. And so that's one of the ways it shows up. In other words, so I think that that honoring, first of all, articulating those values took me a while. I Yeah. Which even though I did not know that you didn't think you'd answer the question, and speak to core values, which is really interesting to me. Well, I really came to an appreciation of core values after I've read the book, church unique, which is a book by will man Seanie. And it's pretty, he's just pretty much a genius. He's an engineer and a pastor. And he put together a thing called a vision framework to help churches understand their unique thumbprint, their identity. And so, but I really appreciated how much he helped me get to kind of, kind of how do you get to that place of identifying, oh, this is who I am, you know? And I think because I have sort of I can default to self judgment pretty Fast and pretty easily. It's helped me to really know what's behind something. So if I have an inclination away from something, rather than judge it, and say, Well, you know, why can't I? Why don't I whatever, however, I'm falling short, wondering a little bit like, Huh, I wonder what if there's some sort of core value under there that might be being activated? You know. But he helped me to ask a lot of questions about it. And he, he has a way with words, and it just helped me so much. I'll give you some examples of my core values I, I just really believe, and a thing that I call and I coined, I have never seen it anywhere else, but sustainably sacrificial acts. And so to me, is having enough joy for the journey. And I think that we in the end, especially in the Western Hemisphere, and our app not to have enough joy to enjoy strength, you know, that that energy that God gives us through our relationships, to be able to do things, and so we kind of push ourselves beyond what we should maybe, yeah, so that's perhaps that's one of them. The other one is that I, I, I really value working on teams in mutually satisfying relationships. Yeah, so that's a huge value to me. And that's kind of, that's kind of how I'll show up and do things I want to team up with people. You know, I also, I really love a desire driven motivation. I've heard you talk about this. That's super important to me, that we, rather than having a shoulds and oughts and all that other stuff to really discover what it is God put in us, that He is, you know, he's trying to, to manifest in the world through us, through our, through the desires he put in us. So that's another one. And I think probably I was gonna say, I have a high value for forgiveness, both giving and receiving keeping short accounts, is important to me. So those are some examples. But I find that my life is a lot more peaceful when I'm cooperating with that way that I'm designed. As opposed to trying to meet somebody else's expectation, or even my own, you know, like, I should want to do this, I should want to do that rather to look a little bit deeper and wonder what's going on here. Whereas I'm going to propose that you add another value to your list. Okay. There's something I recognize in you. And I hear it even in the way that you're responding right now. See, wonder? Yeah, that's my flow. Yeah, yeah. There is this basically how I flow? There. Is this all in wonder that I think that's I see that as the driver that makes you lean in to people is there's not this, Oh, I see them, I already know them. There's actually more so this. I actually wonder, I wonder what's going on? I wonder what their need is? I wonder why I'm thinking I think that way about that, or why they're thinking that way. And that it's it's filled with this, like not it's a non judgmental approach that is filled with a whole lot of grace. And we had a conversation about this a while back, but it's not this curiosity for our own sake that's like, that's devoid of love. Because curiosity without love is actually abusive. Right? And it's, and it's, it's manipulate me manipulative. But there is this very much so love infused wonder and awe in, hey, this is an image better than before me that I'm sitting with that I'm seeing, even if I don't agree with you, and I don't understand, even if I'm angry with even if they're gay, even if I don't understand, but I'm leaning it. And so I I just I very much have seen that I've benefited from it. What they do, for sure, for sure. Well, Ross, something that you have mentioned in the time that I've known you quite a bit is this this word attunement, that if people have They are in the counseling world or they've been to counseling a lot. They may have heard that term before. But there also may be others out there who go, what is the word attunement? So can you help us understand? Like, what is attunement? And how can it help people connect to one another? And heal? Yeah, well, you know, I think the easiest way to talk about it is like, at the very beginning, when you're a little baby with a with your mother, babies by virtue of the fact that they're just learning about the world, they don't really even understand themselves as to be separate almost, well, about around 18 months start having, you know, difficult emotions like fear, or distress, those sorts of things. And the way that God's built into life is for the mom to be able to go and attune to the baby. So that would look like the the mom even actually mimicking the distress on her face that the baby's feeling. So that does a couple of things, the baby doesn't feel alone. It's not a mismatch, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but also, the mom is a presents with the baby, and just gradually, gently brings the baby back to Joy. By whatever it is, that has happened, if there's a big mess, helping to clean up the mess or to whatever it is, the mom can kind of mediate the situation by gently working with the baby till the baby's back to Joy, you know, cleaned up or comforted or whatever. And basically, that actually cuts a neural pathway in their brain, from that area of the brain that's distressed back to the joy Center, which is the prefrontal cortex and the front of the brain. So, and lots and lots of practice like that. That type of attunement, where someone sees me, someone understands me, and someone can help me, you know, that sort of thing creates a resilient personality in that baby. There's a lot of, I think the hard part is that it's pre verbal and nonverbal at that case, because the baby so little, the baby doesn't know language, you know. And so there is a great deal of frustration till you get the baby old enough to where that you can communicate with that baby. I was really blessed that Imogen had words to say, the blank card took mommy away. Yeah, yeah. You know, because otherwise, she's crying. And I don't know why. Right. Yeah. So but the good thing is, and that you and I both know, is even when we don't have the words, Jesus knows. He does know. And so just knowing that he'll be there, and he'll show up. And we can just invite him to do what he does. You know, that's, that's really, that's a treasure, you know, man, that's so good, Rhys, because I, we've talked about this a lot. But just when I think even as adults, we can have moments where we're experiencing emotions that we don't have words for. And you've you've pointed this out many times. It's for sure it can be the frustrating thing for a child. Yes. Because they can't tell you exactly. Here's what hurts. But that can be the very thing that creates the most distress in our lives as adults is because we're going something's wrong. We recognize something's wrong, even if we don't recognize something's wrong, right? Yes. And because we're clearly in distress other people around us may see it sometimes before we do it. But our frustration can come from like, I don't have the words to say what is going on and I've I've, I've learned of just something that's helped me is, is asking Jesus, Jesus, what how do I feel? Can you tell me what can you put a name or if this had a name, if the situation had a name, Mike, what's what's happening in my heart right now? And that has been so it's it's just mattered greatly. It's been it's been the liberation I've needed. Sometimes it's not even necessarily someone to fix it or solve it. Right? But just can you tell me like, do you understand what's hurting? Right? I think that is so true. That's I feel like a huge part of the battle. You know, I was just telling Razzles on a counseling appointment, and when she named the fear there was just some I think that it was almost I felt like a compass. Child, it felt like okay, this is now being seen. This is this is now this is now seen like I like what you're saying the problem I'm it's not coming in the child's anxious and fighting and crying and you're like it's all actually all good, you're gonna be fine now, but it's mirroring. And in that moment I felt like the Lord was recognizing. I know this is hard for you. I know you're afraid. Yeah, I see the fear. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't feel alone? Yeah, there's a thing. There's that whole thing is underneath at all, is that I'm not by myself was someone who cannot help me. You know, I there's someone who, who knows what I feel. And knows what I'm, what I'm thinking what I'm experiencing. Yeah. Because yes, the that's that's good. Because I'm thinking even now, like, Yeah, the thing that was causing some of the most distress was like, man, no one around me gets how I feel. Yeah, no one around me hits up, you can understand what's causing the distress? They don't they don't get it. They can't see it. No. And so you can, but we recognize as adults with a child can need, but sometimes it's if we do have to look at ourselves sometimes as like a little child and go yes. Okay. What do you need? Yeah. In order to? Yes, we are. Exactly. We are children of God. Yeah. And I take a lot of comfort in that. Because sometimes, you know, today as I was praying and thinking about doing a little check in, like you were talking about, and Jesus was just pointing out to me that, you know, you were feeling shame. And then you were feeling ashamed for feeling ashamed on top of it. So just taking the minute that little minute to sit with him, and just ask him? Yeah, I mean, it's pretty, pretty mind blowing how helpful it can be. And simple, you know, really, in all that, I think this will be a final question. We'll see. Because then you answer questions. And then I'm like, oh, man, I gotta ask this question. Are there any simple tips that you would have beginning from beginning steps? For someone that goes, Man, I'm in distress right now? How do I tune in to the Lord's thoughts towards that distress? In his heart posture towards me? How do I connect with that? Yeah. Well, and the way we we really teach people from the start to hear God is once we ask him a question to grab the very first thing that comes to mind, because God is quick and answering. He, he is, you know, he wants to answer more than we want to ask, actually. And so it's kind of like, just being able to capture that very first thing that comes and just start the conversation and ask the simple next question. So I mean, a lot of people, sometimes they will dismiss most of what they get, because they don't realize God's talking to them. It's gonna sound like their voice, because it's on the platform of their mind. You know, he made it to communicate with us in that way. But if you can capture that thing, be it a picture, be it a word, be it a sensation, then the thing we teach them to do is to ask the next common sense question. So if I get a picture of a door, and on, you know, I said, Jesus, I just asked you, what do I need? And you just showed, I just got a picture of a door. Jesus, why did you show me that door? So that's just the next question you would ask and listen and capture that very first thing, and begin to journal those down to see the conversation that emerges? No, that's good. Yeah. So we begin to recognize his voice. One thing we usually tell people is, you know, it's kind of like a T chart. If you have love, peace, kindness and goodness, the fruit of the Spirit, for example, if the answer that you're getting are these things that are coming to mind or bearing that type of fruit or feel that way, that's kind of one thing to say yeah, this is probably God's voice, you know, is probably trying to show me something here. But if it's condemning, accusatory and all that other stuff, that's probably some other voice, you know? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. Well, Raz, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you very much. feel honored to have been here. If you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode. And for that I am deeply grateful. I hope this episode resonated with you and if it did help us out by sharing this episode, and leaving a review on Apple, podcasts, and Spotify. Most importantly, reach out to let me know how you're engaging with this episode, and what topics you'd like to see covered in the future. You can connect with us on social media, or get in touch with me directly at Gabrielle at return to joy.com to share your heart. I'll see you in two weeks for a new episode.