Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Here we're leading people to cultivate joy through storytelling. We hope listening will reveal pathways to unlocking the healing power of connection so that you can see your relationships and the world around you transformed from fractured into flourishing. Welcome back Beloved's. This week, we're venturing into a thought provoking conversation, titled reimagining church with our guest, Taylor Rogers. In this two part series, Taylor brings a wealth of wisdom to the conversation, helping us navigate the various metaphors used in Scripture, to illustrate our relationship to Jesus and our role in the world. We'll discuss the historical and biblical context of the ecclesia. And how that context impacts how we're to function in society today. Taylor is the executive director of wildfire network, and nonprofit organization that exists to help the dreams of Jesus come true in and through his people. Okay, so there are a number of ways that you could talk about wildfire network, but my favorite way to describe it is, as this collective body of people that have been called together by God, and are being sent out in so many diverse and beautiful ways, it has the essence of the kingdom, and humbly, but yet bravely carries the heartbeat of God. Wildfire is also marked by this radical giving of permission, which Taylor leads out in so well. Taylor, is there anything else you'd like to say about yourself? Right, um, I'm Taylor. And it's not even my real name. My, my real name is Chris, which I remember that light, that tripped me out one time when I found that out. So I was like, dang,
Taylor Rogers:my real name, but it's my middle name. And of combat Taylor, since I was born, I really do seek to be a faithful follower of Jesus, faithful to my wife, Ashley, faithful as a father and faithful as a, as a friend. And as a brother, and in all the other identity things that that Jesus has called me to, and all those that he will call me to, and far from achieving the crown, as a certain apostle put it in any of those categories. But I'm grateful, because I have have gotten to benefit and see far more than my fair share of love and joy and peace and kindness and all the things. I love that. So including, yeah, including the opportunity to work with and support, encourage and be a friend and a brother to you. So this being on the returning to joy podcast is an honor for me as well. I'm excited to be here. Thank you. Thank you, I really appreciate it.
Gabrielle Leonard:Taylor, you have seen, you've seen a lot of miracles. And I think even when I say you've seen a lot of miracles. I mean that in a numerous amount of ways that maybe some people made it, it may not be the first thing that comes to mind for folks when we think about what miracles can look like, but you've seen you've seen a lot of them. And I think one of those miracles that I'm bearing witness to is the way you've seen the people of God come together. And so I'd love my first question to you is, would you describe a moment when you truly felt like you were witnessing the church? Like what what was your what was present? There was a distinctive features.
Taylor Rogers:Yeah, even as you asked that question, my my mind is kind of flooded. It's like my life flashing before my eyes. There's this this high speed, real and montage of just miracles. Right? I feel like where the, where you see the church, you see the power of God at work. And a word that we have to describe the power of God at work is the word miracle. So I liked that you chose that word for that because it is something that that we bear witness to. Right. And I think maybe a couple months ago, we met for we have a Wednesday night group called Kindle that meets and we met at a park at San Pedro springs Park in San Antonio, which is a pretty good size city park and it's not too far from downtown. On. And, you know, it's definitely frequented by people. I mean, there's people who sleep in that park, overnight most nights. There's a lot of just various, you know, criminal activities that occur occasionally there. But it's also a place for families where the regularly plate, people drive from across town because it's beautiful. I mean, there's ancient trees, there's beautiful springs, I mean, it's. So it's a really cool Park. And we decided to meet there. Because the emphasis for our gathering was specifically the emphasis of mission of what has what has God sent us to do we try to cultivate and foster worship community and mission with our candle gatherings. And the purpose of this one was mission. So the big question for us is like, where, where should we meet. And San Pedro springs Park was suggested, that's where we met. During that time, there was maybe 12 to 20 of us. And if an onlooker was passing by, they might have felt like, well, there's random assortment of people doing milling about, because we have like, you know, differently abled people, differently aged variety of different ethnicities represented people from various socio economic experiences. I mean, it was, it was a fairly diverse group of 1212 to 20 by about 20 people. And we prayed, and we sang. And we basically just said, we're here for God's purposes, what has gotten we're doing this park right now. And some of the some people felt like I want to go walk around and pray for the people here. I want to go and as the night unfolded, I'll just tell you some of the kinds of things that I got to see, or someone ran up to me reporting on. Yeah, yeah. And this is where it gets serious, because one of the three times when Jesus used the word ecclesia, was when Peter made that confession. When he said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus said, you know, Blessed are you, Simon, for flesh, and blood has not revealed this to you, My Father in heaven. And then he said, I say, also your Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Gates don't move y'all that Ecclesia of God that Jesus will strengthen and build from the ground up, right? That thing charges the gates of hell. And that can't stand against it. They're gonna break through, right, they're gonna announce the kingdom. And we got to see an attempted rape for it in a public bathroom. We got to see those people who were making that attempt in their addiction fueled confusion, and, you know, acting out of their own pain, got to see them held and the police arrived, eventually get to see a got to see a man who's formerly incarcerated, who sold drugs and was very much against police for a good portion of his life. Got to see him involved in bringing encouragement and peace to those officers that were on that scene, to such a degree that this officer of a different race than him asked him for prayer. And here's this guy, who would probably have more reason than most to harbor animosity towards anyone wearing a uniform, especially in the city, and in here, he is just blessing him and praying for him. Right. And it's such a degree that his partner got out and came over to see what was going on, because I think he was concerned. And he asked for prayer as well. So it got to be a cool moment there. I got to see as we were prayer walking, my wife and I, my wife told me this one, one of our one of the younger men in the group ze and another guy, they saw a couple where it looked like there was some very quickly escalating domestic altercation that was going on, but it was across the park. And he had some pretty nice shoes. So he quickly took his shoes off, given a wife and said, Hold my shoes and took off sprinting over towards where the violence was, was occurring. And rather than just get involved in a fight, they began talking print and they were able to sit together for half an hour ended up praying and that the people walked off in peace of their own accord in different directions got to see situation averted there and then even among our group, there was you know, a young Woman in tears who's recovering from some addiction and got to receive some encouragement from some people who've walked down similar road to her, and testify to the hope that they've had in Christ Jesus is just a cool night that any onlooker would have looked at, and probably wouldn't have assigned the word church to it. But I think when the apostles were talking about ecclesia, when Jesus had in mind, this thing, I think he would fully affirmed, that's what was going on in there in the park that night,
Gabrielle Leonard:Taylor you, you also have the opportunity to go to India, central India, and spend time with a brother of yours, Pastor s, and witness what was happening among the people of God there. How describe that to me, like, what, what were you witnessing there,
Taylor Rogers:I was talking to pastor s this morning, and was reminded of just that time and of their way. And I remember what he described, and what I witnessed when I was with them, was that a group of them, you know, brothers and sisters, usually six to a dozen strong, will go into a new village or a new town or a new area of town. And when they walk up, what inevitably be inevitably happens is people just kind of stop what they're doing, realize why they're new people around and they'll they'll gather to, and they'll say, what's going on, you know, and the little crowd will gather. And Sunil or, you know, one of the one of the brothers that's there will say, is there anyone here that needs help? Is there anyone sick? Is there anything going on, that you're hurting and need help? And inevitably, someone will bring an auntie out, you know, who's, who's suffering from some illness, or I remember one time this guy got brought out that was blind. There's sometimes somebody you know, my husband got a leg injury, and we haven't been able to work. And we're, we need food, you know. And what the believers will do in that instance, after arriving, and just asking the community, how they're hurting, and response will say, we want to help you, and we want to pray. And so they will pray in Jesus name for healing. And sometimes people aren't heal seems to fall flat, you know, but, but sometimes there's healing. Sometimes there's miraculous healing that just happens, like a man who's able to see or a person who is able to get up in the way that is described in the New Testament. And what they'll say is, what the heck just happened. And they'll just plainly tell them that just we've seen Jesus that work, and this is, this is the salvation of God, that's coming to you. Yeah, yeah, the name of Jesus and, or they'll, you know, bring rice with them, or bring water filters or bring things that they might anticipate are in need of the community and be able to offer those as well and say, these have been provided by people who are compassionate it has been provided, because of the love of Jesus, for you to meet this need. And the people will say, well, we want to know more, we've been, you know, we've been spending our money on these idols, and on this temples, our whole life and not seen anything like this. And so they'll begin to meet and teach them about what it's looked like for them to follow Jesus, and they'll start meeting regularly. And when they meet, they just express gratitude for what God's doing among them. Like, if that happened to you, you would just want to meet and just be like, Okay, I'm really thankful. This is amazing. Praise God. And then that community will raise somebody up to continue that process.
Gabrielle Leonard:Man, what I love about what you're sharing is I, you see so much activity of what happens when God's people are gathered, under the presence of God. And I hear even in that story with with Pastor s, this almost expectation of, hey, we're, we're coming here to this, this, this village, and we're expecting to bear witness to the kingdom of God, we're expecting to see the kingdom like present, you know, in our midst, and I love that. I love that so much. But this is where the conversations gets good to me at least. Taylor, you have an issue with the language of church being the main way we describe the people of God. Can you share with us like why? Why is that in light of what the stories you've witnessed? A lot of these things you've participated in, why? Why is that? Why do you take issue with that? Yeah.
Taylor Rogers:So let me be clear that I earnestly seek to be faithful to the scriptures of the New Testament in the Hebrew Bible. And in no way what I say that I am against. The people of God are talking about the people of God using language that comes from the scriptures. Right? So the word church is found nowhere in the New Testament or the Hebrew Bible. Many of our translations, especially in English, and even some of the other, especially European colonial languages, have a version of church that they're very much related to one another. In terms of concept, law, long story short, I think that the word church is evil deception, that carries with it an inherent misleading, of the role and function of the people of God. And I think that it's time that we live in a way that's more faithful to what Jesus was speaking about, and what the New Testament testifies to, and speak more accurately with regard to it so that ourselves and certainly the next generation may be better equipped to rid themselves of some of the chains that come along with that terminology.
Gabrielle Leonard:Yeah, no, that's about that. That's for some people out there that are listening. They may go, man, thank you for saying that. But for others who may go, I don't understand. So can you describe like, Why? Why do you say the word church is a myth is misleading terminology.
Taylor Rogers:That's great. So the scriptures use a variety of very important and powerful metaphors, to help us understand how it is that we relate to God how it is we relate to one another? How it is we're supposed to be in
Gabrielle Leonard:the world. Okay.
Taylor Rogers:So some of those metaphors are a little less familiar, like some theirs were referred to as the temple and your living stones were talked about as a priesthood, right? Were talked about as a body, like a human body with many parts and like a hand and a foot, right, a body in that sense. That's one of the more recognizable one of the more like, endearing and useful metaphors that we've been really right to hold on to. That's a metaphor that talks about the inherent diversity and specialization of giftings within the body of Christ,
Gabrielle Leonard:almost like a way of like, how it's a metaphor, they describe how we relate to one another.
Taylor Rogers:That's absolutely the case. Yeah, the body, the human body is used in Scripture as a effective metaphor, to help us understand how do we relate to one another? And even specifically, how do we relate to God? Right, because a body with that's decapitated is a dead body. Right? So to think of, to have a head, yes. And and the head calls the shots, right? And so there's a real sense of Jesus's Lordship and authority that is present in that body. No, that was good. I am. I'm quite convinced that Ecclesia which is the word that is often translated as church, some notable exceptions to when it's not translated as church, but the word that's often translated as churches Ecclesia in New Testament, and that word is a metaphor to help us understand two things. One, how do we relate to Jesus as Lord? Because in that clay, sia would have a head, a person who was in charge of the ecclesia, and that person would have the authority to preside over it, to call it to order to direct the agenda, if you will, okay. And it was oftentimes in the name of that key authority that the ecclesia would then operate and implement the desires of that leader. Okay, so Ecclesia functioned as a common experience. It was a common word. It was used regularly to talk about the assembly of people that governed, it would be talked about an assembly that was going to deal with an enemy threat. It would talk about a gathering of people that was called together to deal with a specific problem in the community or society. Something's got to be done here. Well, let's call together the ecclesia. And we'll make something
Gabrielle Leonard:very purposeful. It was a very purposeful gathering. Yes, people.
Taylor Rogers:So the metaphor of Ecclesia helps us clearly understand our function as it relates to the world. Okay, so the presence of Christ among us as the leader, and function of how we are to be in the world, that Ecclesia is the most helpful metaphor, we have an understanding that, but it is not the only metaphor we have for understanding that. And so just from a language basis of how do you approach the New Testament, I think that it's important to get that part right. Before you can move a little further down to well, why was it some Why was the word church chosen to represent Ecclesia? Because that's a different metaphor. So we're church, absolutely, from efforts a different concept entirely than what Ecclesia is intended. Just
Gabrielle Leonard:before we move away from that metaphor of the ecclesia. Something that you said earlier that I thought was really powerful is you were referring to the ecclesia. The main purpose of that metaphor is to demonstrate how lordship is implemented through an empowered group of people. And so in this case, we're talking about the Lordship of Jesus. That's right. And I also like thought, like, then you then you reference, like, we were talking earlier, you're talking about this, like, it's like this assembly that has the power and authority to change to make change? Yes, because of who's called it? Yes. Who's in charge? Yes. And the power that they have, that they're actually giving to the people that they've called to assemble? That's right. Okay. And then you were saying, like, the ecclesia, the body and the kingdom of God metaphor, one of the things that all of those have in common between each other, is this, like, implied presence. That's right. Can you describe to me a little bit more about what you mean by that implied presence between those three metaphors that are often used in Scripture,
Taylor Rogers:but Kingdom has a king? That's the defining element of what makes a kingdom as opposed to some other sort of leadership structure? Yeah. So the implied presence of Goddess King, and even Jesus as Messiah as this anointed king, is required. In order for the visions that Jesus speaks of the parables, the way he talks about the Kingdom of God requires his presence, right? And acknowledgement of that, that of his lordship, a body, as we mentioned earlier, a body without a head is dead. Right? So the body has to remain attached to its head in order to live. And so there's a sense of like, implied connection. Right? Another thing is Jesus, that I'm the vine, you're the branches, right? The the heart of that metaphor is the the necessity of constant connection.
Gabrielle Leonard:Yeah. To him.
Taylor Rogers:Right. Lose that you burn it down gonna bear fruit? Yeah, right. An Ecclesia. Without the presence of that leader that has the authority to call it is powerless, is confused? Is that effective? Right? Is kind of looks more like a mob than an Ecclesia.
Gabrielle Leonard:No, that's good. That's good, right.
Taylor Rogers:And so so there's a sense of in order for an Ecclesia to really function well, for what it's intended to do, which it's a purposefully gathered, assembly or calling to deal with the problems outside of itself. It has to have that clear leadership present, and that leadership is Jesus.
Gabrielle Leonard:So Taylor, you mentioned earlier that the word church is an entirely different metaphor. And it's different than the metaphor Ecclesia and what it was used for to describe the people of God that have gathered together. Do you can you show us a place in scripture where like that scene?
Taylor Rogers:Yeah, that's, that's a fun question. One of my favorite places to study for for this as Acts chapter 19. And in Acts chapter 19, the word Ecclesia is used three times, I believe, and the three times that Ekklesia is used in most translations, and certainly in the King James translation. It is not translated as church. There's different words that are used to translate the word Ecclesia. Why is this? It is because Demetrius, the silversmith, who was a person who had benefited greatly from the idle, industry of emphasis, recognized rightly so the threat that Paul and the teaching of Jesus as Lord posed to their industry, when he called together those people that you know, were on his payroll, or who he had authority to call together, and said, Guys, we got to deal with this, our livelihoods are at stake. If we don't deal with this problem, people are gonna stop buying idols. Right. So he called together the ecclesia his of his own making of his own calling, called together to deal with it. And so they start rounding up Paul's buddies to take him to the theater. Now, what it says is interesting is that it goes, but they weren't able to actually lay a hand on them. Because some people said, well, we should do it this way. And some people said, We should do it that way. So because they were in disagreement and disunity, it says the ecclesia was ineffective. And able to do nothing
Gabrielle Leonard:more I guess in that translation, the in the King James would say like the assembly, yeah, it probably
Taylor Rogers:says assembly here. But most every other place. You choose the word church, and I'll get to one in just a moment. But But then, what's interesting is that a person of greater authority in the city, and King James calls at the town clerk, but it was a real position of authority and emphasis came and said, Hey, we don't want to get we don't want to get in trouble here. If you've got a real issue with these guys. Why don't you bring on up to the big Ecclesia? Why don't you deal with it? And then I think King James translates it as a legal assembly, but it's actually just the same word. It's just a different person with a different authority. Calling it okay. And presiding. Yeah, that's how so he's saying, hey, why don't you come you know, do this. And anyway, what's interesting is that in this chapter, were three times that clay C is used King James translators at assembly, legal assembly and then think crowd and one is in verse 37, the English word church is used. Okay? In the King James and verse 37, it says, For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess. It used the word churches, they're in refer to a Greek word that talked about the temples, the pagan temples, right? But it used the English word church, because that was the right English word to use for that. Because that's exactly what they were talking about when they say these guys aren't these guys aren't stealing gold from the temple, they're not robbing the church, meaning they're not taking items from that temple. This to this building, physical building. Okay, that's right. And the things that belong to the God that are there, okay. Okay, so. So it actually uses the English word church at a place where Ecclesia is not present. And there's multiple times where accuracy is used, and they chose something different. So here's why. There's a totally separate word that was used in in Greek to talk about the temple and the things belonging to the God. And it was Chiriac KTRK. Okay, and that word ended up being kick kick in like the German and then church. And then you can see how it eventually morphs into English word church. So the word church actually has an etymology, that points to the buildings, okay. And that points to the the kind of like rites and priestly activities and articles that happened in those mostly pagan temples.
Gabrielle Leonard:Okay, almost like like ceremony and a little yellow stone. So
Taylor Rogers:when they said church, and they were talking about a building, and the the people who worked at the building that were formal clergy and the types of things that go on there, they knew exactly what they were referring to. But it was an entirely different word, entirely different metaphor than Ecclesia. I know that there's a lot of people now it's just semantics. Yeah, that is, that's one way to look at it. Yeah, absolutely. It's just semantics. William Tyndale, in 1526 authored the first English language translation of the New Testament, and very quickly, it was made illegal called into question he became a man who was hunted by the state. And there was several examples of things Is that he translated that they felt like were incredibly egregious, because it threatened how they wanted religion to be experienced by the masses. Okay? One of them was he dared to translate the word agape as love, instead of charity, charity more benefits easily lent itself to an understanding of alms giving that sort of charity. He dared to translate metta noia, as repent. Instead of do penance, which do penance, lend itself to whatever prescription the priest would prescribe for you to pay for your sentence. And worst of all, and worthy of him being burned at the stake. 10 years after the publication of this translation as a heretic was a he dared to translate the word at Clay sia as congregation instead of the word they felt like best represented their interest, which was church. So you could say it's just semantics in the sense that there are many people, most believers that speak English as their native tongue, that use the word church, and what they mean is what Christ means by it. And most of the time, those people will lean heavily on some of those other metaphors that translate better, like a lot of talking about the body of Christ and talking about the people of God, I'm talking about, you know, priesthood of the priests, they'll talk about these sorts of other analogies with with greater passion, and then they'll still find themselves saying, Well, I'm gonna go to church, right. And they'll speak of it as the building is a bit. As far as their use of English goes, It's spot on, as far as the English choice, the choice to use church as a translation for Ecclesia. It's an intentional deception, that even if what you have in your heart, is the right thing, and you're using that word, to teach it and talk about it, it just tends to creep and gravitate towards the building and the rituals and the things that we do. And I'm
Gabrielle Leonard:just thinking about like your first, we started this episode with you talking about the miracles that you've witnessed as the people of God have gathered together under the the presence and lordship of Jesus, and the things you got to be a part of, or see and hear, which is far greater than just pointing to a building in a physical space.
Taylor Rogers:Absolutely. And I would say that I have also been in places that for lack of a better term should be called the church because of why they exist and what they were built for, and the kind of activities that happen there. And I've seen Ecclesia happen there. So it's not it's not mutually exclusive, that Ecclesia can't happen in those environments. Or that there might even be designated houses or buildings or places. This is not saying that there's an opposition to that. It's specifically saying that if you want to speak faithfully about what the Bible says about the people of God, and really the primary metaphor that the apostles use, interestingly, it's not the primary metaphor that Jesus used, I think, over 100, I think, but 111 times Jesus speaks of the kingdom, three times he mentions ecclesia, right. But there was obviously a significant shift with His death, burial, resurrection and ascension, and then the sending of his spirit among his people to preside. And they began to understand that eckley sia was the most helpful metaphor for them to understand the way they organize themselves so that they can be effective agents. Yeah, right of Jesus's will in the earth. And so I, I know that if you want to be faithful to the New Testament, if you want to be biblical, I would argue you need to just stop using the English word church when you talk about this metaphor.
Gabrielle Leonard:Okay, beloved, so we're gonna pause right there. But of course, we're not going to end the conversation with Taylor there. I want you to come back for the next episode where Taylor unpacks what could potentially be more helpful language for us when we're trying to describe our gathered experience as the body of Christ. If you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode. And for that, I am deeply grateful. I hope this episode resonated with you and if it did help us out by sharing this episode, and leaving a review on Apple podcasts, and Spotify. Most importantly, reach out to let me know how you're engaging with this episode, and what topics you'd like to see covered in the future. You can connect with us on social media, or get in touch with me directly at Gabrielle at returning to joy.com to share your heart I'll see you in two weeks for a new episode