This episode is a continued conversation with John Garland, pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church and Chaplain of the Interfaith Welcome Coalition. As you heard in the previous episode, much of his work and mission is dedicated to displaced and marginalized families in his area. As a result, he often has to confront questions that we would do well to consider for ourselves - questions of justice, division, action - and how can we be sure we’re doing the right thing?
Together we’ll wrestle with some of these questions, and learn about ways that we can be aligned with God’s heart for those in need, and also how we can sustain in this work by recognizing our participation in God’s miracles around us.
To learn more about Pastor John Garland, visit his page on the SAMC website: https://www.sanantoniomennonite.org/our-pastors
This episode is a continued conversation with John Garland, pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church and Chaplain of the Interfaith Welcome Coalition. As you heard in the previous episode, much of his work and mission is dedicated to displaced and marginalized families in his area. As a result, he often has to confront questions that we would do well to consider for ourselves - questions of justice, division, action - and how can we be sure we’re doing the right thing?
Together we’ll wrestle with some of these questions, and learn about ways that we can be aligned with God’s heart for those in need, and also how we can sustain in this work by recognizing our participation in God’s miracles around us.
To learn more about Pastor John Garland, visit his page on the SAMC website: https://www.sanantoniomennonite.org/our-pastors
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Here we're leading people to cultivate joy through storytelling. We hope listening will reveal pathways to unlocking the healing power of connection so that you can see your relationships and the world around you transformed from fractured into flourishing. Hey Beloved's. In this episode, you're going to be hearing part two of a conversation with Pastor John garlin. If you were with us in the previous episode, you know that he is the pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church. And he's the chaplain of the interfaith welcome coalition here in San Antonio. This conversation is going to talk about necessary spiritual disciplines and rhythms, justice, and how do we ask Kingdom questions? So here it is part two of conversation with Pastor John garland. All right, John, we'll just saying I feel extremely grateful to be sitting down and having this conversation with you. Because John, whether you know it or not, you exude wisdom, that is humble, and wisdom that has been matured through pain, and hope, and wrestling and, and praise and forged and community. It is not isolated. And it's connected to Christ. And I'm I'm deeply encouraged by it. And so this feels like a severe gym to be able to have these conversations with you. And so thank you for, for being present today.
Pastor John Garland:Well, it's a it's a pleasure to be here. And thank you for wrapping all this up in prayer in this space and your podcast and this work and this calling in prayer. It's really wonderful to step into. Yeah, well,
Gabrielle Leonard:I appreciate that. It's intentional. It's intentional. Well, John, we had a really great conversation last time. And that prompted some questions that I think will be helpful for people that are listening, that are involved in work where they would go, man, I am trying to pursue justice, or they longed to see it, I think it it begs the question for you to tell us how you're practicing the rhythm and discipline of resistance and connection. And then to on top of that answer for us, how do these disciplines keep you from losing your humanity, humanity? You know, like, betraying your soul betraying actually the very thing that God put it you put in you?
Pastor John Garland:Yeah, I it's so important to resist, we're called the resist, recall, the resist evil, we're called to resist the Empire. We're called to resist temptations. We're called to resist suffering, and the suffering of others. And we have to do that. And when we're looking at the world, today, we're looking at the headlines, we're listening to the news, there's so much injustice that we have to resist. There is a lot of it is political. A lot of it is rooted in racism and poverty, and horrific waves of of human suffering that we can't even comprehend. And it feels like a very black and white thing, you can do the right thing, or you can perpetuate the wrong thing. And that sense of that understanding of justice as a judge in in dark robes, saying guilty or not guilty, that black and white, it occupies an important part in our brain, in our experience. And I think we have to be open to that and understand when we're pulled toward being right and being on the right side of history. Being on the right side of an event, spiritually, that's very, very dangerous. And because you can get caught up in just resisting and being right, and then you're seeking your own righteousness, as opposed to seeking true justice and we meditate on the word every morning nearly it's in so many of the psalms that we pray in the morning, this ancient word mish pot, that which is God's justice. It's translated as Justice mish pot, but it's very much an understanding of, of judgment, God's judgment and judge justice mish pot it's everything is right because God is is raining this understanding of mish pot and so that pulls us spiritually toward this connection. We want to connect to that that's so good. We're resisting Babylon. We're resisting the Empire. We're resisting hurt and suffering and the perpetuation of of evil. But we're also connecting deeply to God's mish pot God's justice. So it's not us seeking our own righteousness. How will my grandkids remember me? How will I be remembered in the history books? Well, we won't be it's a sin We endeavor but But God's mish pot God is that that's forever it's eternal. It's linked oftentimes to the this alarm, the eternity of, of God. And so as Christians, especially when you're doing work in, in unjust places, it's vital to recognize what we are resisting, and what we are actively connecting to. And we connect, we connect to God through the disciplines that through prayer disciplines, and disciplines of simplicity, and confession, disciplines of Sabbath and resting in our powerlessness, disciplines of humility, and sharing these really, really important disciplines that connect us to God even while we are resisting the things that are pulling us in to mirror Babylon to mirror the temptations to mirror the wickedness that is perpetuated and so that that's an that's an important thing to do. To feel that rhythm. I like to think of it as a foot Yeah, I come down with my heel Yeah, it's that you know, messianic image of the heel of the Messiah stepping on the snake. Yeah. And and then there's the the moving forward with the the five toes representing these different prayer disciplines that pull us toward God's mish pot, God's justice.
Gabrielle Leonard:Man, John, I think it's actually a great analogy. And you know, if you guys are listening, you'll have to visualize what he's doing, or what you just did of that, of, you know, pressing down on our heel of a foot and how that's a resistance. And then this movement forward with the five toes of connecting, I really liked that.
Pastor John Garland:And other times you land with your toes, especially when you're sprinting, you're going faster, forward. And that's what happens with the prayer disciplines. And the end these these spiritual disciplines, were pulled by them, and then we're landing and we have to reject, we have to resist. And so when you're, when you're praying for your brothers and sisters who are suffering, yeah, you then are yanked into resistance of the perpetuation of this injustice, that that's holding them down. The other way to think about it also is, if you're resisting something, what are you then calling for it to be replaced by? It's good. And that's it. That's, for example, let's say, we often get calls from the immigration prisons, these detention centers someone begging to be liberated. Yeah, they're going to be sponsored out or uh, yesterday, I got a call from an ice officer, he said, We pastor, would you take this family, they have nowhere to go. They're languishing here in the prison. There's no reason for them to be here. Would you take them and give them a say, I want to resist the injustice of a incarcerated family. I want to resist the injustice of some for profit company making money off of the suffering of a father and a mother and children want to resist that. But then what am I bringing them into? Am I bringing them into a silent room with no community? And am I bringing them into a place of like, lousy fast food and and loneliness? Yeah. Or are we bring them into a rich, vibrant spiritual community with rhythms of prayer and service? Or have we connected to God's mish pot first, that we can resist the injustice and say, come and participate here come be a part of this Christ centered community. And so I like I think it's, it's, it's easy to make the sign and hold it up. It's easy to stand on the soapbox and declare the unrighteousness of others and the injustice of others. Sometimes that can be actually pretty fun and creative. But then we as a Christian community is the body of Christ were called to actually participate in true mish pot true justice. Which is, it's one of the things that you know, Micah, six, eight says, Do mish pot, do do this mish pot, participate in God's justice, God's judgment. And that's the other thing is in our world, we always want to be right. We always want to have arguments, we want to have positions, we want to say where we are. And so I find that also I will be it was given the immigration questions. I'm always asked the same three questions. It's always it's always is some iteration of the same three questions. And one of them is like a legal question a structure question like, aren't we a nation of borders? Shouldn't we uphold what is a nation that doesn't have borders? If if the borders fall apart, everything falls apart? If rules fall apart, everything falls apart? If these people are willing to break the rules, and come to our country, then how could then they are going to undermine all sense of order. There's those questions. And then there's another question which is an economic question says Here's the question, why should we take care of them? Why should we pay for all the world's problems? What we don't have enough resources? Why should we have to share? And then the third question is a fear of change question. It's like, it's like, if they come, what's going to happen to our economy? What's gonna happen to our language system, our education system, our healthcare system? What's going to happen to our culture? What's going to happen to our worship? What's going to happen to all these things that are, I'm afraid will change. So there's these three sort of fear based questions. We always have them whenever there's an issue of injustice, whenever there's an issue of of hurt or suffering, we're always going to have the same three questions really, almost always, there's fear based questions like, I'm worried that order is going to fall apart. I'm worried there's not enough resources. I'm worried that I'm going to have to change or we're going to change. What am I going to lose? Yeah. And it's really tempting to jump into those debates, and love. Well, let's talk about the economics of immigration. Let me make an argument, an economic argument about immigration, or let me make a socio political argument about immigration. Let me make an argument about shifting groups of people and what that does to society. Let me talk about change. Let me make an argument about change, and how we've constantly been changing and what change doesn't. And when we get caught into that, we're talking about being right. I can be right in those arguments. And I don't think we're necessarily called to be right as the church. I think we're called to do mish pot to do justice. And so what I will say in those situations, I'll say, Hey, that's a great question. That's a good political question. That's a very good economic question. Excellent economic question. That's a really good sociological question, or anthropological question. That's a great American question. I'll say, Great American question. But I want to ask a Christian question. And then we as a community, we constantly have to be asking Christ centered questions or mish pot oriented questions Is God reigns, we proclaim Christ the King. If Christ reigns, then we do what? And you ask though, when you begin to ask those those questions, you discipline yourself, to not be right. But to ask better questions. You start echoing some of the things that Jesus did in those situations were also Jesus, besides peppered with these really hard testing questions, and he would respond with a better question that kingdom of God centered question. And that's also a really good discipline. Whenever I hear myself being right. I there's an alarm that goes off. Yeah. And says, Are you proclaiming the good news? Are you showing off? Are you are you? Are you preaching your own righteousness? Or are you preaching them The Miche part of God? So I think that that those are sort of the disciplines understanding that yes, we are resisting. But just as importantly, and integrally, we are connecting to God. Yeah. And yes, we are recognizing the injustice of the empire of the Babylon in which we live. But we are doing it by seeking God's reign, God's mish pot, God's justice. And then whenever we feel when the big alarm red flag is when we feel like we are proving our righteousness, then we need to repent real quick, real quick, and lean into a proclamation of God's reign.
Gabrielle Leonard:John, that's really good. That's really good. I think we can all point to the times I know I can. When you can recognize, oh, it's actually my Rome righteousness on proclaim, I'm trying to proclaim right now this is less about God's mish paw. So what you're saying, yeah. So I'm just I'm hearing you and I'm going man, I can point to moments when I was standing in my own righteousness, thinking, this isn't the name of God, but it's actually more so my own image that I'm trying to put forward. And so that's, that's really good, I think a good reflection for us. And also practical in terms of how do we ask better questions when we're trying to when we're in that back and forth debate around rightness, or how can we step back and go actually, alright, these may be good political questions, American questions, socio economic questions, but what is actually the kingdom of the question that comes off of our lips when we're thinking about the Kingdom of God and when it comes to that, that analogy you were giving of this resistance and like striking that your heel and then moving forward with the the five toe It made me think of wow, I think that's also a beautiful way of integrating the work of spiritual formation. And this this deep work that we do like in, in walking with Christ, as well as this, this work that cares about the community and the whole i because sometimes I think we were talking about this, sometimes you can see spaces where there's communities that care deeply about justice, and that's very heavy there. But then there can maybe be a disconnect in terms of the the spiritual disciplines and vice versa. And we need both to actually be in any of this for the long haul. Or we're crushed, or we or we model the world. So I love that, John, thank you. So after that, I have a question. This is this for your reflection, I'm wondering, I think at a at a personal level, as well, as you know, communally. We often practice the building of walls, you know, to maintain our sense of safety, right. But it's a false sense of safety. And so I wonder like, what what would you say our walls cost us?
Pastor John Garland:That's, walls are such a, it's such a fascinating image, you kind of have the rebuilding of the temple image of the Nehemiah image of the building the wall, and it can be this communal definition of who we are. But I'm so struck by, I mean, obviously, we think about the southern wall, the walls that are being built in our southern border, the walls that, that delineate some neighborhoods in our city. Sometimes the the walls of churches that will sometimes represent acceptance or rejection, or then use overwhelmed by the way Jesus walked into the temple and the way Jesus looked at the walls. And the way the disciples looked at the walls, Mark makes it the clearest when he's like the disciples were blown away. They're like, this is incredible. And the disciples that I think they're quoting one of the later Psalms, when they're like, this is marvelous. It's so it's what I think one of the Psalms of Ascent, that they're quoting him or like, the way these stones are put together, is so beautiful. And then Jesus is like, none of this lasts. I mean, Paul would be like, there's only three things that remain, you know, faith, hope, and love, not walls. Love is Love is the best, it's not the walls. And yet, and yet, we do have this image of Jesus as the temple. And Jesus says, I tear it down, and I will rebuild it. And it is this place of protection. It's this place of really, really important boundaries. And a lot of times the, the, the Psalms describe God's presence as as like covering wings, or putting you up in a high place in a, in a safe, Rocky, preserve place where you're protected. And there's something really, really important about having walls that are made of the Messiah or Christ Walls Around Us boundaries of the Spirit that hold us in that protect us and guide us in Jeremiah has this image of like, as you go on your way, like Mark the guideposts home, there's also sort of these, the the stone that you would leave on the path to leave, lead your way home, I think there's just something important for us to meditate on is walls that we make, don't last but the walls of the eternal temple of the Christ. Those are, those are those are what we need to lean into. And so I think it's it's a meditation of what are my boundaries? And are my boundaries there to serve my own ego, or righteousness or whatever? Or are those cast by the Christ? So I mean, this is an easy, easy thing to think about, like a southern wall that's dip I'm here I live down on the border, I lived just a stone's throw from the river for a long time and a little hut. When I was just just got to college. I lived in this little hut and there is a, you know, tight no running water isn't as one of these communities one of these rural communities and in the river, there was markers from, you know, 5060 years ago where the river used to be. It was constantly moving every time it flooded. The border moved. Yeah. Every time there's a wild rainstorm, the border changed it was this fluid thing, and is a fluid as an it's a river sometimes it's a deep bow Order and other times it's shallow. It you know, just 50 years ago before the dams were built and whatnot there, it was always moving. And yet we feel like this is this is the eternal, legal bound thing that needs to be defended. I just think about that, what a silly thing to defend. And now you have all these images now of the wall that was just built five or six years ago, that's already been undercut by the flooding and is now becoming unstable. I think that is a prophetic sign for all of us in the American church have have the the chief cornerstone, where's our chief cornerstone? And and is that is that on Christ? Is Christ the cornerstone? Because all the other stones are being rejected? And this one that was rejected, this is the one that we need to let our lives be protected by and bound by Yeah, well,
Gabrielle Leonard:that's really good, John, that's good. You know, I think the even the best response to what you just said that I think you'd most desire to hear from anyone listening to you articulate, that is less. Yeah, you're right. That's the right way to think. And more so to be challenged by some of the some of the things that you're reflecting us on to, to ask some questions to wrestle with that, to go into prayer about what you just what you just shared with us,
Pastor John Garland:when I engage in, say, like a wall that's built around immigration, practically, this is, this is what that looks like. If I if I come across, let's say, a person who is on the wrong side of the wall, I will not define them by the side of the wall that they are on. Because I believe in the in the chief cornerstone that was rejected. Yeah. And so it's really, really vital that that I, I will speak that honestly, like, I see you first with the eyes of my heart, like you are a child of God. Yeah. If you're on the wrong side of the wall, or, or not. And, and to recognize the voice that with my actions and with my words, but also what if you're on the correct side of the wall, and it's your job to uphold the law. And to hold people accountable to this, this structure. It's also really, really important to bless those folks too, okay, because the most important wall is built on the stone that was rejected the temple, the mobile temple, and we're all going home together to that home to that temple space. So I will say I interact with Border Patrol agents all the time, they'll call me about this, that or the other. And every single time I talked to them, I will say, thank you so much for your hard, hard work and your hard service. I know how hard it is on you and on your family. I know how dangerous it is. And I ask a blessing of God, on you and on your heart. And it's genuine like it's really important to how we cannot let walls divide the Christian Church or the Christian witness those if the walls are built by man, than they have no right. In blocking the blessings in the vision of God that this mish pot of God, yeah, it's one of those. It's one of those false dividers that we have to be really, really careful of. Now, politically, walls serve really important purposes. And they always have. And we have to recognize then which King which King is are we going to serve? The, the, the and, and I just, I'm just so struck by that image. And Marcus as Jesus walks in, to the temple, he looks he sees and he leaves. So so quickly goes out. Yeah, but it's it's a it's a it's a the wall image. I think it's a meditation. Yeah. To lean into.
Gabrielle Leonard:Yeah, no, that's good. I, I want to thank you for adding that. Adding that piece, and even just the conversations you would have with a border patrol officer, and then someone who's on the other side of the wall and in a position of rejection. Because I think that I think it's, it's not often that we know how to hold both of those tensions. And maybe that's probably even the wrong word. It's actually less about trying to hold on to those tensions. And actually, I hear you just being present to whom are in front of right now. Just being simply being present there. And one of the the harsh realities that we're struggling with right now is because we feel this need to choose which side we're going to be on, then we have no ability to even have compassion upon the person who represents the other side. And so I think that challenges us, which you've just expressed,
Pastor John Garland:yeah, yeah. And I would also just challenge myself as if if I am to say, hey, that wall is meaningless, then I need to be able to respond very clear. It's like, well, what walls are meaningful and powerful? So if I'm going to say that's unjust, then what is the hope that I'm proclaiming an injustice or mish pot? And so then I have to look at my own life and ask what are the what are the walls of Christ in my own life, the walls, the protective walls around Sabbath, these these these wall, this wall that you walk through and say, and now I'm going to practice powerlessness? What are the walls around my, my disciplines my that direct my heart in my prayer life, my words, my speech, my reflections, what are the boundaries that Christ is giving me that I have to uphold, and that have to then look as like, Oh glorious are these stones and the way that they're put together, and we as a Christian community, I think we also need to be so dangerous to organize ourselves around with, you know, a no border wall, you know, image or placard, and not be able to talk about these are actually the true boundaries that we have been given around our possessions and our time, and our spirits in our hearts and our minds. I think that that's, that's an important, that's an important discipline of like, we need to resist that. But then we have to connect to a beautiful life of being a disciple, which is leaning into the boundaries that Jesus gives us.
Gabrielle Leonard:That's really, that's really good. Well, because you mentioned Sabbath, and it also, in you connected it to powerlessness, which is good, because I actually did not have the spiritual discipline about really, truly honoring the Sabbath until what Christ was beginning to give me this relative revelation of recognizing, oh, as I when I choose to Sabbath, I'm actually recognizing just how powerless I am, I'm actually recognizing that I can't do all and that that was proving to be a helpful, a very helpful discipline. So I, here's a question for you the last one to wrap up our time. I know you've been in situations where you felt powerless. And so I'm wondering what keeps you coming back, spending time with going to a immigration prison again, spending time with another and advocating for another asylum seeking family? Even though this problem is so complex, and big and huge? What keeps you coming back?
Pastor John Garland:Well, I will say, I will confess, it's not the verse that in my weakness, God is strong are in my prayers. I recognize that I confess that I believe that wholeheartedly. And yet, when I feel desperate and anxious and powerless, for some reason, that doesn't help me very much to it, because it's, it's so frontal cortex. It's so like, a lot this logic puzzle of like, If This Then That, yeah, and I know that I know that that's true. I know that we are made perfect in or God's perfection is, you know, comes to light in our imperfections and God's power and our weaknesses. But there's, there's an important discipline that we do as a faith community, around this whole powerlessness thing. And that is it's it's rooted in the two stories of the feeding of the multitudes in the Gospel of Mark. So Mark tells it twice. There's once they're in Jewish territory, and they feed 5000 people, and then then they're in Gentile territory. They feed 4000 people and right after feeding 4000 people, they're in a boat. And they're really stressed out, because ironically, they don't have bread. And then they feel and Jesus is talking about the yeast of the Pharisees and they get all worked up. This is Mark chapter eight, they get all worked up, like oh my gosh, we're so embarrassed. We forgot the bread. And I have those experiences all the time where like, I am not enough. I have messed up. I am now there are going to be all these consequences to be making these mistakes in front of in front of the rabbi, I've messed up, and I don't have enough to provide for myself or to provide for others. It's that it's that image of like, not just powerlessness, but shame and embarrassment. And so there you are in the boat, and and Jesus finds out that they're all worked up about this, ironically worked about not having enough food after they've served 4005 1000 In another in another area. And Jesus is indignant. He's kind of frustrated with them. Or maybe it's comical. But he he will say, quoting the Psalms like you, you have eyes, but you don't see your ears, but you don't hear. And then he makes him count the baskets. He says, How many baskets of leftovers did you pick up? When there were 5000 people, and they counted was like either 12. And these, like how many mega baskets when there was 4000? Or like, was seven? And he's like, Don't you get it? This story was, there's been a mystery for me for all this stuff. But you then you, then it suddenly struck me in a really poignant moment when I was exhausted and feeling ashamed and feeling powerless, and then all of a sudden, there was irrevocable, obvious, overwhelming evidence that I had been participating in a miracle. And Jesus says, Don't you have eyes to see it? Don't you have ears to hear it? Yeah. And so what we do as a faith community is every Friday morning, in place of our normal prayer time, prayer requests, everyone it's like 15, or 617 20, folks, on Friday morning, we will, we call it counting our baskets. And so everyone will describe the leftovers, what it looked like to clean up after one of God's miracles that week. And so we all have a running list from the last years, it's hundreds of pages of people describing the evidence that they've participated in miracle that week. And some of them are like wild and huge, like, this mother was reunited with her child, this father was liberated from prison. You know, this, this woman was released from the kidnappers, like massive miracles, we couldn't have done it. Others are like, I heard my grandchild, say his first words, or I saw the blooms of the flowers, or I got caught in the rainstorm, or these little these little baskets that represent just just shock your heart and your soul into the realization that you've been participating in the miracle. And so it's this practice of, I am tired, and I'm ashamed. And I'm scared, and I'm embarrassed, and I don't have what it takes. And yet, I remember that I have just every single week participated in Miracle upon miracle upon miracle. And the faith community also is participate in miracles. And that's, and we want to, we want to just continue that walk. And that's that's how I that's how we like discipline ourselves into that truth that in our weakness, God's strength is manifest or in our powerlessness, that's when God is, is powerful in our imperfection. That's when we see that perfection. Because we can't take credit for any of the baskets. Yeah, it's just we're just cleaning up the leftovers. So that's one of that's one of the things I'd love to do on Friday morning. Basket, counting
Gabrielle Leonard:basket counting, I love it. I love it. Well, John, this this was incredible. I really enjoyed getting the chance to sit across from you and have this conversation. And this is the end of what we've what we've planned on having a conversation around. But maybe in the future, you'll come back and and we'll hear about some of the baskets that you've been been counting. You are constantly witnessing miracles. And I think it is an encouragement to the body to hear them. So thank you so much, John, for sharing.
Pastor John Garland:Love it. Yeah, thank you and blessings on on everyone listening to your awesome podcast I do.
Gabrielle Leonard:If you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode. And for that I am deeply grateful. I hope this episode resonated with you and if it did help us out by sharing this episode, and leaving a review on Apple podcasts, and Spotify. Most importantly, reach out to let me know how you're engaging with this episode, and what topics you'd like to see covered in the future. You can connect with us on social media, or get in touch with me directly at Gabrielle at returning to joy.com to share your heart. I'll see you in two weeks for a new episode.