Decentering Yourself, Compassion Fatigue, & Bearing Witness with Special Guest John Garland (Part 1)

John Garland is the pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church and Chaplain of the Interfaith Welcome Coalition. John pastors from the discipline of “no action without prayer, no prayer without action.” His applied theology interprets Christianity as a trauma-transforming faith movement, he reads Scripture as divinely inspired through and for traumatized communities, and he understands hospitality, story, and prayer-centered community as the most powerful tools of healing.

In this episode, we’ll hear about why it’s important to consider scripture from a lens other than our own, as well as how we can practice hospitality and why it’s crucial to the mission of God. You’ll hear stories, encouragements, and meaningful lessons from Pastor John’s journey walking alongside the displaced and asylum seeking communities around him. 

To learn more about Pastor John Garland, visit his page on the SAMC website: https://www.sanantoniomennonite.org/our-pastors

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Transcript

Gabrielle Leonard: 0:00

Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Here we're leading people to cultivate joy through storytelling. We hope listening will reveal pathways to unlocking the healing power of connection, so that you can see your relationships and the world around you transformed from fractured into flourishing. I want to welcome you guys to the returning to joy podcast, I'm really excited to have John garlin, who is the pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church. Here on this podcast episode. John is a man of sincere faith, a man of integrity. And I've watched his life from a distance, and have have come closer in some conversations in these last couple of months. And what I see is something that really challenges me and encourages me, but also gives me hope, for what could come when we respond with a yes in our heart to the Lord. And when we and when we see people as the Lord sees them. And when we decide when we decide, hey, we're going to be proximate, we're going to, we're going to enter into connection with people that the that normally we've been socially conditioned to be separate from. But John is the John is the pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite church. And he is also the chaplain of the interfaith welcome coalition here in San Antonio. John is, has been a part time pastor for the last 20 years. He's always worked with displaced peoples and asylum seeking families. He's always held to jobs. He's he's worked in, in the church, and in church context, but he's in He's also worked in the community, he's in community development work on the border farming, public education, nutrition work there, he's he's been able, he's always I think, when I think of John, I think he's, he's, he's willing to say yes, and do what needs to be done to one be to respond to needs in his community, but also to respond to the calling of God in his life. And so I think that we have a lot to learn from John, and I'm going to kick it over to you, John, to also just add and fill in the gaps. Anything that I missed in introducing you, John, thank you so much for for being on this episode.

Pastor John Garland: 2:24

Yeah, it's a pleasure. It's, it's always wonderful to talk to you all and and spend time here and and participate with returning to joy. I really appreciate the work you're doing.

Gabrielle Leonard: 2:35

Thank you, John. Thank you, John. How did you become the pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite church?

Pastor John Garland: 2:42

Well, I was a pastor down on the border for a good long while. It was a community almost entirely of undocumented folks in that in that community. And then it became more of a bilingual gathering. We moved into the neighborhood in South Town, and were two blocks in the church. The church didn't have a pastor for a year, we were participating in different ways. And they they called me to be the pastor, just before the immigration crisis began involving asylum seekers from Central America at that time, so I just had become the pastor. A few months in, when we began seeing in downtown San Antonio, all of these women and children primarily was the first wave from Guatemala, El Salvador, from Honduras. And we, we were, we were pulled into that movement of response. And I felt I felt in some ways, completely and utterly unprepared, and in other ways, uniquely prepared, because I could speak Spanish and I could connect with traveled to some of the areas from which these families were coming. And so is this wonderful combination, which we oftentimes find in church leadership, where we are called and prepared, and utterly unprepared and we have to lean on one another and, and lean on God and lean on a very, very humble, humble walk. It's been a it's a now these last eight years in South Town in downtown San Antonio pastoring. The San Antonio Mennonite Church has been a it's been some wonderful opportunities for growth, opportunities for transformation opportunities for really, really deep and powerful relationships. Also opportunity for a lot of pain and and coming up against profound trauma and profound brokenness. And, and, and feeling that ourselves and feeling that hurt and feeling that secondary trauma. And then sometimes primary trauma from from the the work of response.

Gabrielle Leonard: 5:11

Yeah. John, something that is really striking to me about you is, you are, you are extensively theologically trained, you know, you've you have an extensive background as far as in education, you know, in schooling, and then even just your parents, and the legacy that they have. Believe your mom is the namesake for the School of Social Work at Baylor. But in a conversation we had earlier you talked about how your theology has gotten wrecked by being in proximity to displace families, like people that are seeking asylum. Can you? Can you give more more context to what you mean by that?

Pastor John Garland: 5:54

Yeah, I think it's easy to approach scripture and the word of God as it is authority. And so when we approach authority, we get the sensation that it came from a place of authority, the will will read scripture from an elevated place in church, from a pulpit people, sometimes people will stand when they hear the word of God, all that's completely appropriate. And the Word of God is authority. And it comes from a place of authority, it just doesn't come from a place of cultural authority. And there's these moments in my life where I'm just stunned to hear the Word of God spoken through someone who is deeply and profoundly suffering and has no power whatsoever. And then you hear the resonance of God's voice and in a, in a much more authentic way. And, you know, I think it's important for us to understand the Psalms, the prayer book of the Bible, it's coming out of the experience of exile, and there is no temple to worship and there is no structure with which to to call on there, they are crying out from, you know, the rivers of Babylon, and profound powerlessness. And then, how many of the most quoted lines in the New Testament were written in a prison cell, and facing terrible injustice and hurt and that that voice resonates? It really, it really struck me recently, to hear a Haitian man, a Haitian father, he was gathered at our Hospitality House. There just around the corner from our church, and he, he wanted to pray many of the families that come from Central America from from Haiti from Central Africa. They come to our Hospitality House. And what they want to do is they want to pray, they want to worship they want to pray, they want to sing around the table, and he took the scriptures, and he was reading the scriptures. And then he paused in Second Corinthians, and he described what it was like to come through Panama from from from Colombia, and he described as being out on a boat, they were trying to get around to the Darien Gap. It's one of the most profoundly dangerous places in the world. This jungles stretch with no road and no no safety. And they were on a boat, like a large canoe in the ocean. He and his family and others and the boat, the boats motor broke down. And so there they are adrift in the ocean. And he described being out there for two days, and, and and the nights. And he described what the what that experience was like to pray, knowing that they had no power. And they had very little hope except for their prayers. He said we oscillated between praying and singing, praying and singing and then crying. And they washed the sword miraculously, they washed ashore. But when they came ashore, they they were attacked by bandits, and everything that they had steal was stolen from them. There's this these cartels that prey upon the the those moving through this dangerous part. And then they went to the authorities and they were persecuted by the authorities. And so here they are, with no safety and nothing to lean on, except grace and their prayers. And he's here describing this story and he's crying. And then he gets to that amazing passage in Second Corinthians where Paul is like, I was on the ocean. I was adrift. All those nights and when I came ashore, there was no safe place for me to go. I was not safe from the wild animals. I wasn't safe from the bandits I wasn't safe from my own brothers. I wasn't safe from the authorities. He's, and then he says they are in the prayer group to this other folks who are listening, read Scripture. He's like, This is Our Story. And God goes before us in this story. And this is the part that caught me. He said, We have participated in a miracle. And then he told me later, he's like, I want to keep doing that I want to keep participating in miracles I want to be, I want to be called in the same way that Paul was, Paul couldn't say no, to his calling, because he kept participate in these like, profound miracles even through the suffering. And so I mean, hearing that, like I will never read Paul the same again. I will always feel the presence of that Haitian dad and his story every time you read a passage, you know, from from Paul, that's, that's one of those kind of gripping experiences. That changes the tone of Scripture. For me,

Gabrielle Leonard: 11:00

I hear that, and I, I'm interested in what your thoughts are, because I'm wondering man, so then what is what do we risk when scripture gets disassociated from that vantage point of powerlessness? What do you what do you think we've lost as scripture gets subtly associated with not just being authoritative itself, but being something that is a bit like Christianity being a religion of the state or the Empowered places? Does that make sense? Yeah,

Pastor John Garland: 11:32

yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it, it is profoundly dangerous. But also we can just very intentionally when we read scripture, for example, I'll do this a number of times with our church, if we're, if we're praying the Psalms, we first pray the psalm, in the voice of a family in Babylon. Let's pray this psalm, as if, as if we are next to a family in exile, they have nothing, they're losing their language, they're losing their religion. They've had to watch it all burned down. And let's pray the psalm with them. And then the psalms are the prayer book of Jesus. And Jesus is constantly quoting. So now let's replay the Psalm and just hear the voice of the Messiah next to us. And this is how, let's hear, let's hear Jesus resonating. Jesus is the eye. In the psalm, Jesus is the one who's going to craft this for us. And then the third time you read the psalm, you read it with a brother and sister, who speaks another language, that it's helpful, the vast majority of where Mennonite Church, the vast majority of Mennonites live in Africa, in in Sub Saharan Africa. And so it's helpful to be like, Well, now let's pray the psalm again, and hear it from the perspective of someone in in central Congo. And how are our brothers and sisters praying this song, as well? And, and you understand, I think the Hebrews brings up this, this idea of the cloud of witnesses. Yeah, it's, it's like this, but it's also it's the humility of recognizing that this scripture is a gift to all of us. And some of these scriptures are 2000 years old. And so we're praying it with, with folks throughout all of that time. And also, some of these scriptures are so ancient, we don't even know and they go back to this, this this beautiful sort of experience of communion of the of the believers. And I think that that's, that's for me, that's an important discipline to D center, you d center yourself, is oftentimes the safest way to read Scripture. Yeah.

Gabrielle Leonard: 13:48

Yeah, that resonates in a lot of ways. Even just thinking about. I went, I went to the Philippines a couple of years ago, it was only for a week, but I was staying with the with the family that's still this day, like deep loved ones. And, and I, when I was walking down to this little, this little bench to spend some time with the Lord in this and it was in a slum community. And I just felt led to read a psalm. And it was like Psalms 13. And probably one of those were David's like, how long? Oh, Lord, will you forgive me? I think that's literally how it started. And so I think it was self 13. And I started reading it, and then felt really convicted because of the Lord Padme pause and he was like, nope, start again. And in that moment, I realized, Oh, I'm reading this Psalm. And I'm David, like, David's me, I'm the one who's crying out how long the Lord will you forgive me? Like, I'm like, That's the vantage point. And I've my eyes caught a glance with this guy who was right across the road who's hunched down, and he was like, you know, working with some bricks. And he was like, I want you to read it from that guy's perspective. And then I started reading the Psalm. And now he's David, which made me ask the question of man, like, who am I Your mind still wondering, Okay, do I get a get a role in this piece? But but there was really some hard good some good wrestling that came out of that because the muscle and so the question, Lord, if he's crying out loud how long the Lord you know, where you forget me? What is your response? What role do I do? Do I play in that response? Like what role? Like, how is the activity and the way in which I live even in the US? Like how, like, how are we connected? It just there were just some good wrestling that came from that. And that was actually for me the first time I think that I had practiced reading scripture where where I checked, where am I sent? Am I centered in the story? Who else could I send her in this story? So I think that that could be a really powerful practice for people. That's practical, but also just Yeah, filled with a lot of power in life giving to an end a good good way into for decentering. ourselves.

Pastor John Garland: 15:55

Yeah. Yeah, it's, there's, it's such a such a gift, I think, also to, to admit, that we don't understand to, to just sit in all of Psalm 13. Like, sit in all of some of these images and concepts we, we can't understand. But we can we can we can let them flow over us and through us. One. Another important approach that I have found in approaching scripture is this, this hint that Paul gives us about the spirit of adoption, where we're, we're Paul will say, in Romans eight, just let our spirits bear witness to your spirit of adoption. We don't understand it, but we can bear witness to it. And I think there's something there's something really, really beautiful when a believer approaches scripture and doesn't say, I now possess this, I own this, I understand it. It's more like I bear witness to it. And in fact, My Spirit bears witness. And I think that that's also an important experience of the church, the larger church, when, when we talk about sort of the way we're engaging in the world, let's say we, we host many, many asylum seekers in our church, we could say we could claim we are doing justice, and we are loving mercy, by hosting them and giving them protection. We are we are doing this. That's a profoundly dangerous way to read scripture, and a profoundly dangerous way to be church. And I think a much more spiritually mature way is to say, we are bearing witness to our brothers and sisters in Christ on the way we are bearing witness to the miracles that God is working in their lives. We are bearing witness to God's provision. We do not fully comprehend it or understand it, we are participating in it. And we give thanks for that in all, but we don't claim to completely get it or possess it, or call it our own success. Yeah, I think there's there's a really, really strong temptation, okay. And it's, it's a poll because we're told, Hey, always be ready to defend, always be ready to give testimony, always give, and I think there's an important there's a, there's a, an important clarification of what we're defending what we're giving testimony to. So Peter will say, when you're under attack, you know, be of unity of spirit be, you know, be Be humble, Be kind, always be ready to give testimony about your hope. Okay. And I think that's an important that's an important lesson for us that we want to clarify, we don't have a position we have a hope. And a you see, you see this lived out, let's say with Philip, at the beginning of John, there's this like really racist attack, where Nathaniel's like nothing good come from there. Yeah. And this is this is the comment we hear resonating through all parts of our society today. Nothing, no one good, nothing good comes from that place, that community that them and then you have Philips wonderful responses he gives he bears testimony to his hope. And He does it by saying Come and see. Come with me and see what I'm what I'm seeing. You can bear witness also to this hope. It's less about saying that I understand Messiah theology. I understand the prophecies are coming all now into this fullness of time. He doesn't bear he doesn't bear witness to his brilliance, or his depth of understanding. Philip just says, I'm walking in this way, I have this hope you can come with me and see it. I just I get oftentimes attacked in in about immigration issues, really, it's about racism. And and, and oftentimes people are going to ask me really specific questions, and they're gonna ask me, where do you stand? Then I feel I feel like we oftentimes feel the desperate need to respond to that question, where do you stand on this issue? Where do you stand? What do you get? What do you possess? What is it? Where are you? Where are you claiming your place? Where do you stand. And I think it's really important for Christians to understand we don't stand anywhere, we are walking on the way. And Jesus doesn't really care about where we stand, Jesus cares about how we are walking in the way. And that just changes the the way we we approach our, our intellect, the way we approach scripture, and that like, who's in the center of the Scripture, it changes the way we we reflect and how we're going to respond to the call of God in our lives. And I think that Italy is always pulling us sort of back into that spirit of adoption. God's saying, You are mine. I love the way I love the way you talk about home. And that that needing for home, that place where you are completely safe, where you completely belong, where you are utterly loved. And Are we bearing witness to the spirit of adoption that gives us that safety, that love that gives us that experience of belonging and home? And then it's almost like a test for us? Are we bearing witness to that? Or, I mean, it's easy for a pastor, I'm always been like, you need to be smart. You need to know the answers, you need to be clever, you need to be a good communicator. And Peter reminds us no be ready to bear witness to your hope.

Gabrielle Leonard: 22:26

That's a good word. John, I think I personally am going to re listen to your, your answer. And, and sit there and, and wrestle and not I think there's often a temptation, because of maybe a false sense of security brings to try and cling to what I know, you know, like, but I can, I can be assured I know this, or hope or an attempt to get whatever right. But then all of that can if we're not careful, be outside of the person Messiah Jesus in it can actually be in our own pride and arrogance. And so I find some there's something deeply humbling about having any rhythm or practice in your life where you're constantly wrestling with the truth of man like we don't we don't possess anything outside of this deep connection with the Messiah Jesus in walking with him. And recognizing how much should we aren't aware of but are trying to bear witness to are trying and are trying to point our own hearts back to and point the hearts of other people towards as well. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a humbling road of unknowing and actually not being quite sure. But I think we have a temptation of trying to grasp that assurance in an unbiblical ways, if you will. But so thank you, I pray I appreciate you sharing around that. Because hospitality is such a key sinner. In in your life. Personally, I feel that I do believe you have a personal witness to this not just a witness of it in your church community and fellowship, but because hospitality is so centered, how has you know, hospitality and connection been key to well, how is it key to our spiritual formation? How would you would you speak into that?

Pastor John Garland: 24:28

So I remember someone who was very, very clever was was explaining it was I think it was a study of x. And he was this this teacher was, he made this bold claim, he said, The Nothing ever happened significantly, theologically. In the church, the early church, outside the context of hospitality. And I was like, wow, that's a wild, wild thing to say. And then he just walked through all these experiences. A major cross cultural clashes that happened at tables, or happened in houses or guest houses. And then led to this, you know, these explosions of growth, not necessarily numbers gross always but but but this is the, you know, this, this growth in the church over this shifting understanding of who we are, who God is how we walk with God. But I remember I remember being, you know, enjoying thinking about that, and then experiencing that, in our own church, when we are suddenly hosting families who have who have profound been profoundly hurt, who've lost everything, who've lost their homes to the violence in Honduras, who've lost their homes, to the wars in Central Africa, and they're staying in our church, they're staying in our guesthouse, they're staying in our own homes. And many, many folks on our church, you know, eight years ago, we were all of our guestrooms were always full, it seems like each evening, you're sharing a meal with them. And there's a couple of approaches to hospitality. One is to be the caretaker. And to you fix the food and you do the fixing, and you do the prepping and you do you kind of set this up as like I have taken care of this person. And the other approach to hospitality is more of a transformational hospitality, where it's, it's a sharing together in the space and the storytelling and the cleaning and the cooking. And that that can lead to a lot more really beautiful. Shifting at that something that something happened for me where were someone I can I can remember her and her two children, and they were sitting at our dinner table. And we have made some I don't even know what the mail was. But I remember as we were sitting down to pray, she was saying, I'm just so grateful that you took us in. I'm so so grateful. It's so kind and I remember feeling sort of that that tension in my heart of like, we've done next to nothing. It's been it's just so easy. I remember hearing us, you know, praying that we like we're so honored to have you with us like what a gift it is. To have you in our in our home, like you are such a profoundly strong mother, you've given up everything in your life to save your children's lives. You've been called horrible things and you endured you walked and Impossible Road and only by the miracle of God. Are you here like what a profound gift it is. You think about like the Peter was staying in a guest house when he had that vision of the sheath coming down with all the foods, what a gift it would be to be the host of Peter who's sleeping up on the roof, and then Cornelius his crowd comes by, I mean, we don't know what a profound gift to be the caretaker of that home. Or I often around Christmas time will often joke about Mary and Joseph and the precious christ child are asylum seekers. And they're fleeing across the desert to Egypt. And as a church that hosts a lot of asylum seekers, we joke about turning to to Matthew chapter two and searching as closely as we can through all the verses trying to find what was the name of the church that hosted Mary and Joseph and Jesus. Like who if if, if Matthew could spend all this time listing out the genealogy, at least he could give us the name of the of the blessing folks who hosted the Holy Family, but it's not even in there. And it's this idea of what a profound gift it is to host and to give hospitality. And again, we are just bearing witness to the way we are bearing witness to the mobile temple as it will we're bearing witness to the church, the pilgrim Church, the pilgrim people. And so that, that I think that that's a really important, as opposed to being like, Hey, we're doing a ministry where we're hosting as many people as we can. It's more of this ministry of all of bearing witness, but it results in two things. And I think that this is very, very important to grasp because we can, we can get really excited about hospitality and be like, this is the right thing. to do it's very simple. Are you going to leave people on the street? Are you going to take them in? It's, but I've noticed that this sort of hospitality leads to two things. One is very honestly, compassion fatigue. And then the other thing that it can lead to is communion, like, right, good and communion. And I think it's just very important to be attentive to all the things that lead to compassion, fatigue, and a lot of that is a lack of boundaries, or stress and anxiety. There is secondary trauma, which is just a really real thing, we have to be honest about how we're affected by secondary trauma, and anxiety and that these kind of flow into this stream that can that also flowing into this is burnout. And, and burnout oftentimes comes from a lack of clear boundaries and and rhythms and Sabbath thing. And that leads to compassion, fatigue, where you we can't rightly love we can't rightly receive love, we can't rightly give love that is a that is a real thing, that if anyone's being honest, and they do hospitality, they've they've wrestled with all of these things, and we just have to be honest about it and not what's the word sanctimonious or not not be like, you know, I can, I can do this I can power on through.

Gabrielle Leonard: 31:32

So if you've experienced compassion fatigue, what is like, what's your advice? If that's a place that someone finds themselves in? Yeah, what what's needed?

Pastor John Garland: 31:44

I think it's, I think there's a there we want to win the important things is confession, confession with with a safe community, and a prayerful community, confessing, and then you kind of go back upstream and see the different things that have played into it, I don't think you can wrestle with compassion fatigue, I think you have to go back upstream and see the sources over the last nine months or a year of anxiety and stress, and look at at the ways boundaries have been pushed or broken, then you look at ways that you've experienced secondary trauma. And you you work with folks who are well versed in sort of the in the resilience, and the transformation of of secondary trauma and trauma, or you kind of go back upstream. And you don't pretend that it's not there, and you force your way through it. Yeah. And then the other pathway The other thing that can happen with hospitality is this experience of communion I think it's important it's really really important as for to understand that communion is nasty, it's an it's a ritual we were called to the Jesus called the disciples to that Paul was like, Y'all have to get this right Do not mess this up. And, and it is a, it is a outrageous and nasty experience, where, you know, Jesus says, This is my, this is my body, and then pours blood. And when we do that, every Sunday in church, where we're like, you know, this is, this is trauma. This is the, this is the nastiest form of trauma, it's like tearing apart life, and spilling the blood of life everywhere and insane people come up and look at it, and then and then consume it with this faith, that God will transform it. If you ever live in real relationship with people, you know that it is human and it's can be really nasty. Yeah, broken hearts, hurt feelings. stopped up toilets, you know, all of the things that come with, with living with other people are in close proximity with other people means that you are in, in proximity with the table. And, and there's something that we are called to as Christians is to not be afraid of the heart. You know, we have all these symbols in our in our faith, like the cross, the horrific symbol of public display of suffering and death is our symbol of victory. And the the baptismal waters, the drowning waters where Paul describes you go down into death, becomes this symbol of becoming one with one another and one with God. And then communion is like God, you is present at the table and is promising resurrection. And when we are doing that, you know, in the presence of one another, I think that that's, that's what we're that's what we're called to. Yeah. And it is. It is. I mean, I oftentimes serve communion. But more often than not like church, I love to receive the communion. And that's what we're doing with hospitality. If we're doing it in a healthy way, in a in a, in a way sort of in the presence of God, we're both sort of at the table receiving recognizing God's not afraid of the trauma, not afraid of the hurt, not afraid of the brokenness and is promising this, this transformation.

Gabrielle Leonard: 35:45

And John, that's good. I am unashamedly going to patch this but remind me of the the chapter where the communion table, the all famous passes that's read when people are taking communion. That's that's First Corinthians.

Pastor John Garland: 36:01

We Yeah, it so called Paul describes it in first Corinthians mainly because they were messing it up. Yeah, they're messing it up so badly. Yeah.

Gabrielle Leonard: 36:10

Well, that's that's actually what I wanted to point out and see if you had thoughts on this, because I was struck. I think in 2020, I was wrestling with I was looking at all the places where community the communion table was being set. And something that I couldn't help but notice was that there was division among them, just before pretty much every communion table, like you correct me if I'm wrong here. But I'd, but I'd love to know your thoughts there. Because I, I found myself, I think often, when we're trying to bring people to the table, we're talking about communion in oneness with our brothers and sisters, there can almost be this false sense of everything's good. And that's why we can come to the table. But I was seeing actually this messiness, even just before they were taking communion with one another. And so I'd love your thoughts on the connection between division, you know, even just just fighting and tension within the church, and the communion table.

Pastor John Garland: 37:08

Yeah, that's a good, that's a really, really good reflection. And that's such a good question. It's almost like, in some ways that almost like meditation literature, to think about this, and think about what our divisions are, in light of it, the division, the cosmic divisions, and the, in this in the attack on the Messiah, like the ripping apart, and you think, I mean, I can, I can give you a list of things that I'm really, really upset about today. And ways that I've been hurt, or ways that I've been offended, and then you put that up next to what, what Christ has done, and who Christ is and it and it really, super shifts the perspective. I think that's why it was That's why Paul talks so vehemently about is like, do understand what you're doing. And, and I think also, as it was important is that the gospel writers who describe Jesus, breaking the bread and lifting up the cup. And, and in this in this Passover celebration, I think also they're stunned. response. And, and the the shock, I think there's something about the shock, which is really, really healthy, because it can pull us back into an experience of truth and experience of, but it can also drive us away. I mean, that shot can also we can respond to it by way I don't want anything to do with this. Yeah, I am personally, really adverse to conflict. I hate conflict with other people. I hate conflict with myself. I hate having to look at the issues and other people that are utterly broken. And I hate having to look at myself as broken. It's shameful. And I think the experience of of communion elicits all that it calls us into that here is utter vulnerability unto death, but not just death, like really bad death on a cross, it's calling us to that, that that profound and doing it together. And, you know, there's different experiences of that, I think, in when you're working in hospitality, or any sort of work in in the in the church, that stepping into lives that have been traumatized, that have been trapped that had been torn apart. That had been torn down. It's scary. Yeah. And it's and it's vulnerable and and we, obviously we want to sanitize it. And that's why I think that's why Paul's like, every time you get together, you know, do this isn't about your wealth. This is not about you, you know? Of course, there's all sorts of wild things happening in Corinth as well. Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Leonard: 40:14

Man, that's good, John, John, this has been a really great conversation. And I know that there's so many nuggets of truth, there's so much, there's so much wisdom that you've shared with me and with those that are listening, that would be medicine to our own souls. But also, I think if we grasp some of the wisdom that you've just shared would be medicine in our communities, and the places work God's called us to be present and to serve and to love one another. And so I want to thank you so much. We are going to need there is a part two to this conversation, I think you have, you have a lot of wisdom to share in regards to the fact of the fact of the matter is, your community is doing a lot of work that is restorative, and I believe, is just in beautiful work. But a lot of times that can that can be if we allow it to be at the harm of our of our own souls and even at the harm of the people we're trying to serve. And so I'm really looking forward to continuing the conversation in the next episode, where we get to talk more about how you've balanced like this, this this work of social justice, but also prayer independency and staying before the Lord and humility as a community and for you even personally as a pastor. So thank you so much, John, and we'll see you guys on the next episode. If you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode. And for that I am deeply grateful. I hope this episode resonated with you and if it did help us out by sharing this episode, and leaving a review on Apple podcasts, and Spotify. Most importantly, reach out to let me know how you're engaging with this episode, and what topics you'd like to see covered in the future. You can connect with us on social media, or get in touch with me directly at Gabrielle at returning to joy.com to share your heart. I'll see you in two weeks for a new episode.