The Heart Behind Returning to Joy Ministry

We've got a special guest! Executive Director of Wildfire Network, Taylor Rogers, steps behind the mic to interview Gabrielle Leonard, Director of Returning to Joy. In this episode you'll hear her heart and the why behind the ministry of Returning to Joy. 


Letter from the host:

Dear Beloveds, 

Reflecting on and responding to the faithful and intelligent love of God has been therapeutic to my mind, heart, and body! I vulnerably share because I want you to experience the joy of authentic connection with Jesus, yourself, and others. 

Growth happens at the point of connection. Thank you for trusting me with this connection! I'm glad you're here! 

With joy, 

Gabrielle Michelle 

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Website: https://www.returningtojoy.com/

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Music by AG (Affirming Grace) @agmusic4god 

Transcript

Gabrielle Leonard: 0:25

Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Here we're leading people to cultivate joy through storytelling. We hope listening will reveal pathways to unlocking the healing power of connection, so that you can see your relationships and the world around you transformed from fractured into flourishing. Man, it is always a joy and an honor to show up right here with you guys. And this episode I'm really excited about I've asked my brother and executive director of wildfire network, Taylor Rogers to interview me. So wildfire network is a organization that exists to help the dreams of Jesus come true in and through his people. So it's a beautiful collective of diverse people that are responding to what God's put in their heart to do in unique and authentic ways. And I thought, man, who better to ask me some questions about the heart behind return to joy than Taylor Rogers, who has been so crucial and supporting me and the development of this ministry. Because if you didn't know, wildfire, not wildfire, returning to joy, or rcj, for sure, it is not just this podcast, but it actually is a ministry. And as we continue to listen to the Lord and be responsive to God, what are you building and doing, we're adding more organizational structure and more offerings and just showing up with people. And it's been a beautiful working thing. And, and I'm just excited for you to hear a little bit more of the heart there. So let me step out of the way so he can hear this episode.

Taylor Rogers: 2:16

Okay, so I'm here in the wildfire network, podcast recording studio with Gabrielle Leonard, founder and starter of a mission called returning to joy. So I just said it was a mission, I realize that's a technical name for wildfire network, ministry partners and people who are really part of that network. But, you know, you might talk about it as a church or a ministry or movement, or I don't know how you would talk about or what you would say, returning to joy is, but that's really my first question for you. What is returning to joy?

Gabrielle Leonard: 2:53

It's a good question. To start off with some practical one. What is returning to joy? That has been a question that I've been asking the Lord for the last two years. Returning to joy is a responsive movement to the Lord. It's a movement space of bringing other people into what it means to walk relationally with God, in the way in which he intended I believe, even just from, from creation, you know, just for us to walk in the relational intent of the Lord, where that affects the way that we relate with one another, and the way that we relate with with ourselves.

Taylor Rogers: 3:30

That's really That's a great answer. One of the things I heard you say that that seemed like a pretty tight description, was when you said, returning to joy as a responsive movement. And then how did you finish that off?

Gabrielle Leonard: 3:45

Yeah, that returning the joy comes from a place of understanding that the very, the very pain that we see in the world, the things that frustrate us, the things that are complex, that are hard, the things that are ailments within our very own soul, returning to joy comes from this place of recognition of, we're going to respond to the fact that the Lord is actually aware of those very same things to and actually has a redemptive plan and solution for those things. Those are not. And so because a lot of times, like I know I've done it, doing it in different ways and unlearning we can try and go out and do from the place that is more responsive to pain than it is to the presence of God in that pain. Living from the responsiveness of pain is not sustainable for what the Lord wants to do in the earth, but living it with responsiveness to the heart of God to that pain is sustainable. And so it's it's returning to joy is this movement by which we're trying to disciple and teach and train. How do you shift to doing things in that manner? And in that way,

Taylor Rogers: 4:49

if you're, if you're listening to this, recording, you know, I'd encourage you to go back to the beginning and listen to Gabrielle's answer. Again, I think in that you'll find a package that includes salvation that includes the kingdom that includes redemption, that includes fellowship and communion and there's a lot of things that often get framed in like classical terms of Christianese that have felt like you expressed in a very authentic way, that to me echoes of the upper room when Jesus did clearly express his own desire. I've told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. And and this is the same one who endured that pain of the cross. Yeah, not because of the pain, but for the joy set before. Yeah. The next question I have has to do with returning to joy right now. What does returning to joy do now in terms of current offerings and resources?

Gabrielle Leonard: 5:48

Yeah, right now, returning to joy offers cultivate Joy sessions. And that's a space where people can just have a one on one time where I'm like, facilitating them in a conversation with the Lord that really does end up looking like the Lord, being counselor being like the good being a good shepherd in a tangible way, and also being coached for them, where he really do find he does something that unlocks just what is needed within their heart. And so, so every session ends up looking differently, people can do just a one off session, but you can do like several sessions with those have also done, they're offering something called showing up together sessions. And it's basically for teams, that they feel a sense of a disconnect, or there's just a desire for there to be a deeper level of oneness among them, there is where they're like, man, like, we don't want a false sense of unity. We don't want to have diverse voices at the table, and then not know how to utilize and bring those voices out to the surface. And so those sessions with teams, I think it has really helped cultivate that kind of environment that breeds space for people to show up together well, and so that's what those sessions are. And then

Taylor Rogers: 7:13

as a as a ministry leader, who really understands the purposes of God, and the beauty and effectiveness of diversity in creation, and then humanity as a reflection of that, and really, the kingdom of God, as portrayed throughout Scripture seems to also reflect that is, you know, also a person who is aware that, as a leader, I've often neglected to implement that. And many of the environments in which I've been led have have neglected to implement that sort of diversity. And and and I feel like right now there's an awareness among church leaders, Christian leaders, yeah, Pastor friends that I have, there's an awareness of a desire to experience more of what God has through the diversity of his people. Yeah. But there seems to be a lack of knowledge as to how to do that, other than giving a person of color or giving someone a seat at the table. And it, it does seem to be the case that sometimes just bringing someone to a table with the same settings as before, the same table as before, sometimes ends up causing hurt to that person, and you actually still miss out for sure what God intends. And it it sounds like, the kind of sessions that you're talking about doing have been productive or helpful for there being like an authentic, I think you said authentic, where

Gabrielle Leonard: 8:45

there's not incongruent seas with like, the value of the organization and what's actually being lived out what's being experienced among the group. For sure.

Taylor Rogers: 8:53

That's cool. So sorry to interrupt you, we're talking about the individual sessions. And then you were talking about showing up together, which

Gabrielle Leonard: 8:59

is more of a group deal. Yeah. And then there's a desire to put more resources on the website. So I'm really excited about that there's still things that are being worked on something that's like continually being worked on is something I'm calling grieving with God, because just like the last like two years, I think multiple people would feel a sense of resonance with that statement. But that's definitely there's that's been one space that I've been in with the Lord of wrestle and of him discipling me in what it looks like to grieve in His presence and come out on the out on the other side, like basically kind of continue in that process and rhythm and it looks different for everyone grieving does, but there is there are things that can like help and continuing along and so I'm excited about when that's available. But yeah,

Taylor Rogers: 9:49

I'm also excited about that. One of the things that I have found in my own in my own experience, having been brought up majority culture white male, you know, evangelical Christian, that the the space for lament is short lived, you know, we're extremely quick with the tissues. If if there there at all, yeah. And many other cultures, certainly the African American community, I have witnessed really being able to Be present in a grieving space in a way that honestly, to me looks more like the kinds of things I read about from the Hebrew and the Jewish people, and Scriptures with regard to mourning, grieving lament. And so I would be excited for your voice and for the ministry of art rtj to be able to, to impact to you know, not necessarily infiltrate, but to, to germinate. Yeah, you know, into the this zeitgeist that we're in right now, because there is such a need for lament and grieving. And I think that there's a real lack of awareness as to, like, how, or why so I'm very excited for that resource.

Gabrielle Leonard: 11:15

mean, to me, I think, even

Taylor Rogers: 11:16

like an individual perspective, but then also in a corporate sense. And yeah, what would you speak to that for just a moment about kind of the the nature of individual and corporate, and how that comes into play, when you think about resources, the return into joy would be,

Gabrielle Leonard: 11:35

yeah, there's definitely this place of a constant both and that try to function in, there's an awareness of, there's times when you've got to speak to the individual, because the Lord sees the individual, he sees the one. And, and there's something that the Lord can DO and DOES and one heart that sparks something, and another, and so trying to be very much so intimate and specific in the way we speak to the wind and providing resources for the wind in their own private time with the Lord. But then also mindful of, there's ways that we've done a disservice to, you know, most devotionals are like, are directed at like, hey, one person reading this for themselves. And it's, it's very much so AI centric language. And so there's, there's, yes, there's a need. But then there's also this balance, where it's like, we also need, healing is also a communal thing. It's not just individual. And so there's a need, you have to speak to the community, and you have to speak with God is dealt with, to what God wants to do and is doing among the whole, because I actually find that sometimes the disconnected that necessarily feel some of the symptoms that we're finding in our own lives as individuals are actually because of the disconnect to the whole, because there's a sense of cut off nests from the body. And so there's a desire as well to to make sure that we don't do a disservice, but we serve well and provide resources that are community minded of thinking like, No, we're talking to a Wii, and we're serving a Wii, because that is also needed for the health and wholeness of the one. And the, and the health and wholeness of the one is also needed for the health and wholeness of the whole. And you know, like, and so, when we read scripture, to think about not just our perspective and think about okay, what, what role in place, would we assign ourselves, which is usually the main character, usually the awesome one, but just thinking about? What would it look like if we disinterred ourselves in that store in the stories that we're reading in Scripture and centered someone else? And ask the Lord Lord, like, what could this scripture be doing in this person's heart, if this person is the center, and it wasn't, and it wasn't me, those things only strengthen our relationship to to the Lord even,

Taylor Rogers: 13:47

I really appreciate that that's a great way of understanding kind of what lies behind what we see which we just see the current offerings or the forthcoming ones. And sometimes they can seem to be aimed at different groups like this is an event that's for the community, or for a group or this is a group experience, or this is maybe seems to be a high on the surface, a highly individualized personal spiritual journey. Yeah. And I, you know, if you look at our TJ and what it is, it's difficult to pigeonhole as to one or the other. But I feel like you just gave a really articulate way of connecting them and explaining why that's what we see. Yeah. So I appreciate that.

Gabrielle Leonard: 14:27

One thing just to add a story to that, because it is one of the places where that's when thinking about Scripture and Bible say where we're, where some of that's coming from, is when I was in the Philippines. There was at one point when in in Manila, there's one point I'd like walk down the sidewalk a little ways from from the home that I was staying in. And I felt the Lord led me to open up the Scripture and as I'm opening it up, and it's in it's one of David's Psalms. It's, you know, slipping my mind now in this moment, I think maybe Psalms 13 or 16, where he's like, how long Oh, Lord, you know, like, will you forget me? Well, my enemies rise up against me, right? Like, not so not a narrative not connected to David at different times. But I remember reading that and I started reading the Scripture. And then all of a sudden, I got me a couple of voices in knights of the Lord said, Nope, start again. And instinctively, there's a sense of I've never thought this way before, but instinctively there is the sense of it. Oh, I get what's happening. I'm David in this moment. And I've just I've just put myself as a David immediately in a minute when he said, Nope, start again. I started back up from the top. And then I began to look around. And I felt like he pointed out this guy who was like, crouched on his knees making, like working with cement. And he was like, making bricks or something. And he said, I want you to read this song from that guy's perspective. And it was like this. Okay, and so then now if I'm reading The song was this this guy's perspective? It even asked me it beg the question, I had to ask some hard questions about like, Wait, who am I? Do I have a place in the story? But I'm not David, this guy's David, than where am I? You know, like, if this guy is crying out, Lord, what is his look like? If he's crying out, Lord? How long? Will you forgive me? What does that mean for my role in my relationship? And is there even a sense of the Lord's response is not delayed because the Lord has delayed but there is a sense of like he uses it were a part of his response in the earth. So if there was just there was just a wrestle, regardless of where you land, simply because of D centering myself in that story, I had to wrestle in a way that I wouldn't have had to wrestle before. And so that just, it was a striking moment for me that it was never discipled in me before. And so it was just like, whoa, what would that look like for this to be one I definitely felt a conviction of, I need this to be a more regular practice in my study and reading of the scriptures of not so quickly centralizing myself in the sense of this is about me, I'm the main character here.

Taylor Rogers: 16:54

Go on a tour, so to speak. Yeah,

Gabrielle Leonard: 16:56

yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Rogers: 16:58

So I've heard you mention that God is often at work in a person long before anyone can see it. Yeah. How was God working in your life prior to returning to joy that we can now see expressed in this ministry?

Gabrielle Leonard: 17:14

Oh, that's great question. There was one story. I think it's connected and like getting out to something else, too. If if it's not connected enough, you can follow up. But one image that I can't get out of my mind is, it is I was in, I think I was in college at this point. And I came back home, I was at my dad's apartment. And I think my little my little sister is there. My older brother was there. Possibly my older sister as well, too. I think it was pretty much everyone in my immediate family, except for my mom. And I remember there was Kim, what was going on, but there was just chaos. Like, there, there was a very intense argument that was going on. I think my little sister left the house. I think for a second there actually, I actually think we weren't sure if she ran away weren't sure if we weren't sure where she went in the in the level of intensity of that moment. It was very much so it could be factor that grace just dipped. She just left and so and I remember in that moment, I broke down to my knees and I just started weeping and crying and last so like praying loudly, just loudly praying. And it wasn't a show it wasn't I'm pretty sure like some preachers some people in the moment would have thought it was a show maybe I don't know but it was just this like I am so beyond overwhelmed in this moment. And all all I could do was pray like all I could do all I could do was pray and there is this sense of powerlessness and there is this sense of not supposed to be this way it doesn't have to be this way there is just this discontent dislike like I don't I'm so done with I didn't have it didn't feel like this. I didn't have any blaming there wasn't someone in my mind of like, whose fault it was, like I said don't even necessarily remember what all happened.

Taylor Rogers: 19:14

Or, or was there a person wrong or many wrongs? There's just a sense of like, just feel like even this sense of like,

Gabrielle Leonard: 19:21

I don't even feel separate from this I feel a part of it very much. So a part it's not even like you all are the issue and it's wish I could get step out of this. But there was this like, I think this was this heart cry of God Do you hear? God? Where are you like, like, do you see this? And I think those were moments that there's always been in me this sense of God Do you see the discontent the chaos and the turmoil? Like of your people do see and I'm not necessarily even speaking specifically to speak like we were all Christians in that room but even just thinking about the like chaos of the world like and it's like God like do you see this where you're Where have your eye where are your eyes here and but also to this huge this outcry to him because there also was this internal sense of like, only you have the power to like, step in here and I do think you actually are within earshot I actually do think just thinking about there's a little like, Hebrew proverb, I think or something like that when they're like, they could tell how long a child had been without their parent, because it's like, if the child is barely calling out, and it's a whimper, they know that that parent has been gone has abandoned that child for Lord knows how long because the whimper the still the small Yelp is because the child doesn't really believe an answer is going to come anymore. But the child who's screaming loudly who's like, you know, top of your lungs still yelling out Mom, mom, dad, Dad, are you there? That mom, that parent that dad is, is actually probably not far gone? Because that child still believes that it could that its cry could be answered? And so I think there's there is this. There is this wrestlers always been this wrestling this tinge and also a cry, believing that, Lord, you actually want to and will and are the only one that can answer here. And you are the one that we need to answer. And I think that in walking with the Lord, there's been this. He's taken continually and still on this journey of realizing his answer. And realizing he is with he is responding. And even the promise of like, I will give I like the hope that we long for, for the Lord to accomplish, and even the sense of like his, his promise and his solution in those places of deepest darkness and pain of him being like I am the answer. And it just, there's a connection for me. There's a forever connection of the deepest darkness in the world, the deepest pain in the world, and the answer and response of God.

Taylor Rogers: 22:20

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. I think that it is a testimony to the faith that the Lord had cultivated in you at that point in your life, that you would be capable of feeling the wrongness of that disconnection of that last one. Right? Jesus hinted at that when he was talking about a lost sheep. And then people were like, Oh, it's a sheep that's lost. What's the big deal? You got 10,000 sheep. In the story, even Jesus talking about you gotta get 100 sheep. Yeah, one loss. Yeah. You know, you get 10 coins. You get one loss.

Gabrielle Leonard: 23:05

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Taylor Rogers: 23:07

But but the the heart of that series of stories is when Jesus was like, Yeah, but you get two sons. And then one gets lost. Man, you feel that? Or at least at least God as portrayed and the father of the prodigal son. Yeah, feels that. Right. And I think that it's your testimony to the unique work and even calling that God has given you that you would be capable of feeling that brokenness in that moment. Right. That is a really accessible and like, it's, it's actually, when I hear that I'm able to interject my own moments of cry, longing, pain, whether they're my own or ones that I've shared with other people. In hearing that story. It's it's, it's, it's inviting into that. And then it also is inviting to that same faith, that trust that God is near. Yeah. And God is able and desiring to do something about the pain that I'm expressing. And I think that's a wonderful way of talking about the origin story of returning to joy, where is this coming from? That's where it's coming from. So praise God. Amen. That's, that's all the questions that I had.

Gabrielle Leonard: 24:24

Thank you so much for interviewing me. If you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode. And for that, I am deeply grateful. I hope this episode resonated with you and if it did help us out by sharing this episode, and leaving a review on Apple podcasts, and Spotify. Most importantly, reach out to let me know how you're engaging with this episode, and what topics you'd like to see covered in the future. You can connect with us on social media are getting in touch with me directly at Gabrielle at return to joy.com to share your heart. I'll see you in two weeks for a new episode.